Opinion: Apple needs to step it up when it comes to OS X accessibility

Hello.
I respectfully disaggree. I've had my mac for two years and I love it! I wouldn't go back to Windows. If you are having problems, contact Apple. Give them specifics on what is going on.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's now time for me to make my thoughts known on another post by the AppleVis community.
I do not post often, but I must say that for the majority of people posting there complaints about apple, and there accessibility, AppleVis can't fix them. I repeete, AppleVis, can't fix them. While I understand that this is a site to voice concerns, and give praise to aps that are accessible, I must also remind all of you, that if you have a problem with an apple product, please send a message directly to the manufacturers. If you state your message in a constructive way, 9 times out of 10, at least for me, I get a response. It probably would not hurt to thank them for the effort already in apple's operating system, as it's the only commercial operating system with a built in screen reader. And please, do not bring narrator in to this conversation, because it's not the point. Mac does have a learning curve, but it also is flexible. No whare in this thread for example, have I seen any mension of apple script to make voiceover work with applications more affectively. I would love to learn how to write apple script, just so I can extend the possibilities of using VoiceOver. Does it work like JAWS or NVDA? Not exactly. Remember, it's entirely different in a lot of respects. MIght I suggest we start using what we have in front of us to make things more accessible. We have the ability to write scripts, why not? We have the ability to write our own programs that are accessible. Why do we not do that? I would love to learn how, it would sertainly knock off people who like to attack other people. Again, there is constructive criticism and then there is complaining that just takes up space on the poor forems. Before there were screenreaders, companies didn't care one bit about accessibility. Actually, the idea of blind people using a computer, was laughable. Apple does not want your complaints, and they sertainly do not have time for people who just say I hate this product. If we all compiled a list of issues with VoiceOver, and put them in a list, and then sent it to
accessibility@apple.com it will be heard.
Thanks for reading my thoughts, and God Bless all of you.
Darrell

To the original poster (T Dog), props to you for a well-articulated, reasonable post without so much of the negativity that pervades these type of discussions.

Getting back to the original discussion, it's clear that a lot of people are having significant issues with OS X. Everyone's experience is different; what's a minor issue to one user could be an absolute deal-breaker for another. I think it's important that in any discussions, we (myself included, for sure) not minimize the impact of issues on other users simply because they don't bother us.

So the question is, how do we move forward from here? Because of Apple's culture of secrecy, it's unlikely that people will receive the kind of detailed responses from Apple Accessibility that they want. (I'm sorry to be blunt, but I'm just being realistic.) My guess is that Apple Accessibility representatives are very limited in what they can say when interacting with the public, and that their statements are very closely scripted. It is what it is, and again one must remember that Apple is a very secretive company in general...not just in terms of accessibility.

Unfortunately, because Apple is so secretive, this means that you won't find Apple employees interacting with the public on mailing lists etc. The Apple-haters will, of course, use my previous statement as a way to vilify Apple yet again. (But then again, the haters are going to hate, regardless.) Coming on here and bashing Tim Cook doesn't get us any closer to a solution, even if it makes people feel better. If we want a solution, we need to take ownership and be part of the process.

As I see it, Apple provides end-users two options: write to Apple's Accessibility@apple.com e-mail address, or join the Public Beta Program. Beta-testing is not for everyone, and yet it's probably the most direct way to work with Apple to ensure that bugs are identified. If you don't have the skills or technical abilities to beta-test, that's fine. But if you're not beta-testing because you don't think Apple values your time/feedback, I have very little sympathy for you if bugs come out in a release that you could have reported. (And this is coming from someone who beta-tests iOS, doesn't report every bug I see, and then sees those bugs in the final release...very possibly because I didn't take the time to report them.) Apple could be more open in communicating with/reaching out to users, especially during the beta process. But we need to do something more productive than whining here on AppleVis.

Hello,

I suspect the problem is based on individual computer, not OSX as a whole. Perhaps it's a setting, computer program or a particular hardware configuration. Just read this thread and you can see some folks are having issues while others are not. Because the OSX is not container based like the IOS, people can do all sorts of things to their Mac that finding two identical macs is impossible.

If you really think your OSX is faulty, try the following. Use time machine to back up your system. Use disk utility and erase/format your drive. Do an internet recovery and do not restore from back up or install any apps. Now test your Mac by using Safari, Mail or whatever you were having problems with. Are you still encountering the problems? If you are, let Apple know. Provide them with your SN, system specs, the exact error message and the steps you took when you got the error so an Apple support person can replicate the issue. If this is too much for you to do, then you're part of the problem not part of the solution. IF this isn't something you're willing to do, you're just a whiner.

For the person that constantly bashes Tim Cook, you know who you are, why do you continue to purchase Apple products? In addition to helping him earn his annual bonus, you also contribute to Apples's corruption of accessability.

I think the writing's been on the wall for a little while: iOS is the future, and where Apple will concentrate. The iPad Pro, the focus on productivity changes in iOS (including the enhanced keyboard support in iOS 9), the new accessories such as Lightning-compatible thumb drives all point to this. It's not just accessibility that's been taking a back seat in OS X, but rather it's OS X itself that is being put on the back burner. There are many bugs, having absolutely zero to do with accessibility, that have been there for a long time now. I don't see the Mac dying for several years at least, but I do see it happening. Once iOS developers can write and publish their apps on iOS without ever having to use a Mac, we'll know then that the Mac's time is over.
iOS is the next step in Apple's evolution, and that's clearly where they're going to concentrate. It makes good business sense for them to do this too, if one looks at the numbers. iOS is the clear breadwinner.

I'm glad the question about Safari search box has been raised in such a comprehensive way. Unfortunately, VO not only fails to navigate in text boxes, but also on webpage text elements, not related to search boxes, skipping them alike. I've repeatedly sent reports of this bug to Apple, but they won't budge.
P.S. Typing and editing this comment in the Mail app, pasting it from there.

I have never, ever, absolutely ever, had a problem typing in standard editfields on webpages.

Neither have I. Everything works fine on my end. I can move back and forth in edit fields using safari. Google chrome is where I have some issues with edit fields and VO not speaking what i've written. I have to navigate using VO and arrows to see what i've written. Ah well.

Ok, then the question becomes why does Safari work for some folks and not others? Perhaps the people not having problems need to get together with the folks who are, and compare notes. Perhaps a setting isn't enabled that should be, or something's turned on that needs to be turned off. It's amazing how big a difference one setting can make. As for the Tim Cook bashing, stop that shit. If you don't like Apple's products, don't support them by continuing to fill his pockets with your money, unless you buy them with the express purpose of buying them just so you can complain about how crappy they are. He's the CEO. He has an entire company to run and accessibility is one of his interests. Apple is not a screenreader company, people. It's not like FS, GW Micro/AI Squared, or the NVDA Project. In other words, accessibility is not Apple's main focus, but it is on the list. If you're not happy with apple, use something else. If you like Apple, please by all means keep using it, but don't continue to bash them here, without contacting the accessibility team as well. They don't hang out here, they're not going to see the comments.

Well put. Those are my thoughts exactly.

I certainly agree. Macintosh is the only commercial operating system whose screen reader is built in. At least, it is much better than Window who doesn't care at all about accessibility, and person with visual impairment always burden a hepty price for fully functional screen reader like Jaws. Therefore, constructive criticism should be made. Through some of the above comments, Voiceover on the Mac may step a little backward, but at least it is still there, and it still has a room for improvement. Thus, We should encourage Mac to continue improving accessibility. Hopefully, Voiceover one day will become dominant in the Bblind people's market as a result of the free screen reader whereas JAWS will lower its price. Thank you.

I think in addition to Apple, we also need to encourage accessibility on the Windows side of things too. After all not everyone can afford a Mac. Go to Apple's website and do a bit of shopping. You'll find right away that a good solid mac is gonna cost twice what a Windows pc will, and that keeps a lot of people out of the Apple game. So encouragement for accessibility on the windows side is just as necessary. If one company does it, all of them need to do it. As for the price of JAWS going down? Unfortunately that's not going to happen as long as FS has government contracts. If you want a great solution that's free, NVDA is definitely the way to go. Or, if you're a user of Microsoft Office, GW Micro/AI Squared does provide a version of Window-eyes that's free, and works quite nicely. The kicker is that Microsoft office must be installed and working on the pc for it to work properly. It doesn't have quite as many voice options as the retail version, but it is there and works quite well. So there are choices here.

Although not requiored it would be nice if you could manage Voiceover sounds. For example I would like to turn off the flicking sounds, but keep the sounds of opening folders, actavating items and so on. Just a thought and an option I would like to see. Obviously there are more importaint bugs and such that should be handeled first but I wanted to share my thoughts.

Definitely, window accessibility should be encouraged, but I hope very little since window predominate the market almost 30 years, and accessibility is relatively low in comparison to Mac unless fully functional screen reader is installed. Furthermore, Mac is surely more expensive than pc counterpart; however, it comes preinstall with useful program coupled with premium built quality. Let's see in other side, if you combine the price of the PC with fully functional screen reader, not to mention other license of office suite, the cost is more pricey than stand alone Mac. Up to now, blind people in my country have to pay for screen reader themselves, so I cannot afford both screen reader and premium PC. That's the main reason I would like to switch to a Mac, which screen reader is built in.

However, It doesn't mean I hate window. I grow up using PC with Jaws for 25 years, and I really love JAWS. A full-time window user in my workplace, I'm familiar with PC platform, but I cannot afford JAWS. That's why I hope JAWS lower it price. I don't want it to be completely free, but its cost can be slightly cheaper, let's say $400 and free upgrade or something. Thanks.

to the person who says i shouldn't blame tim cook, I just have to ask have you paid for your mac on your own, or did someone get it for you? for those who say that I shouldn't blame tim cook, yes I can, because I've used a mac sense 2009, and I know what apple can do with accessibility, and as far as reporting stuff, what do you think i do each and every day, I am nice to them, but lets be honest folks, their comes a time when hearing we're working we're working we're working over and over and over again, and not seeing any results just get a little bit old. case in point, I have reported an issue that still plagues the mac sense OS ten yosimite, where when you have speak items on log in screen is checked, guess what, you do a major os update voiceover does not come on. I've reported this many many times, and guess what, we're up to 10.11.4 and still, to this day the issue is not fixed, and yes, apple says we're working, on it. it gets old when someone who clearly doesn't know how to sell things runs a company.

You can't blame Tim Cook because he's just the person that is the CEO. How much actual development does he actually do? Also, like Big Cat said, he's a figurehead, so he's just the guy everybody sees. Just because you "can" blame Tim Cook doesn't give you an excuse to blame him.

Ok. so, if I go to a place like McDonalds and the food sucks, do you see me yelling at the CEO of the company and blaming them for crappy food? Nope? Didn't think so. If you don't like Apple products and think they're sub-par, stop! freeking! using! them! Unless you get some kind of sick neurotic pleasure from coming on here and complaining about Tim Cook. I think that's probably the case. sheesh, some people ain't happy unless they got something to complain about...

Hello,

Yes Brandon, I purchased all my Macs myself. From my 1997 Power Mac 8600 to my current iMac and the six others in between. And to say you have the right to complain because you purchased a Mac as oppose to someone that was given a Mac is silly.

If you really think Apple isn't doing a good job with Voice Over, why do you insist on buying a Mac? You can always buy a Windows based PC and install NVDA or Jaws. Heck, here's an idea, format your drive and install Windows. This way, you don't have to deal with VO.

If you really think about it, Voice Over is free software for the Mac. And since it's free, perhaps Apple's bean counters are suggesting not to spend too much time and money on it. And what if the same bean counters say hey, you want a better voice over? Let's hire more software engineers to make sure it's perfect then we can sell it as a stand alone program for 400 dollars. Is that something you would be okay with?

As far as your log in issues, I don't think it's a bug but an error on your system. Check the OSX forums and no one else seems to have the same issue. On my Macs, I don't have that issue. I suspect you had the issue and upgraded. When the issue was not fixed, you assumed it's a bug. Have you tried disabling, restarting your Mac and enabling the feature again? Have you tried wiping the drive and performing an internet recovery and not use a time machine backup?

I know you're probably thinking why do I need to restore my OS? Here's a clue. When you report a problem, a tech with a fresh install of the OSX will try to replicate the problem. And guess what? 99 percent of the time, the problem will not occur. Most problems on the OSX occurs due to a setting or program conflict and unless you're willing to take the time to troubleshoot, reinstalling the OS and replicating the problem is the way to go.

I am sorry to say t dog that what you say is spot on. Sadly I don’t see that changing anytime soon, if at all. The Apple of today seems to prefer the gimmick approach, it seems evident when you watch their periodic advertising videos. Personally I find Voice over and its pleasure to use sadly lacking as to when I switched from windows just 4 years ago. Unless my memory is as shaky as Apples accessibility, I found Mountain Lion to be pretty good. It is also interesting to note, that Android are making ground on Apple when it comes to accessibility, okay they have a long way to go, but they are travelling. Does anyone else find that some of the voice enhancements are actually worse, or is that just me. I used to favour UK Daniel, but they have improved it so much, that now I’m using US Samantha and not the enhanced one at that. It’s a pity that it’s not possible to choose the one you get on with the best. Most of these mac gripes are also fairly true of iOS, especially the speech quality.

Hello, everyone, As I read through the posts, I come across one that said JAWS will never deduct its price as long as it stil has Government contract. Can anyone tell me what the government contract with JAWS is? Thanks.

Large companies that have many, many blind JAWS users get a discount when purchasing the product, and the employees are also given a substantial discount to install the product on their computer at home.

Hi, thank you for all helpful clarification. How about international customer? I live quite far from US. Do I get special discount?

If you work in a company that has many JAWS users, you could consider approaching your company about the discount. If there are programs that provide services to people with disabilities in Cambodia with some disability supports for a lower cost, you might also be able to use that to get a cheaper version of JAWS. However, I do realise that this discussion is moving quite off the topic of this post, or off Apple products in general.

We are moving quite far from the topic of this forum, and I apologize for helping this happen. However, I just wanted to tell the person interested in a Jaws discount that they should look into NVDA. it is a free open source screen reader for windows, that is comparable to Jaws in nearly every way. For most people there is no reason to pay for Jaws if you can use NVDA or Voice Over on the mac. In fact, NVDA does come into play with the original topic of this forum, because it gives the mac a serious competitor when it comes to free screen readers. If the accessibility issues on the mac continue, NVDA on windows is going to become a more and more attractive option for more and more people; it is no longer the case that we have to choose between the mac and paying an obscene amount for Jaws.

to the people that think voiceover is free you are sadly mistaken. you buy voiceover when you buy your mac. it is true it comes at no additional cost, but it is not free. everyone both sighted and not, voiceover users or not pay for voiceover when they buy their macs.

Even if you buy it with your Mac, Voiceover is free because you don't have to buy it by itself. Yes, the Mac is free, but VoiceOver is free becuse it's something that comes with your Mac. You're buying the Mac, not VoiceOc flyer.

Hello, everyone, First and foremost, I would like to apologize for bring off-topic discussion. And I wish to extend my holdhearted thank for sharing with me. Yes, NVDA is free; however, I can't be considered as the professional screen Reader yet. In addition, it only pack with only e-speak which is not the good sound quality. If you want the human voice, you have to pay for vocalizer expressive driver. In addition, I find it hard to navigate in office suite. On the mac side, despites its high price, it come with pre-installed voiceover and preloaded vocalizer expressive voice. The problem is that voiceover users cannot gain all advantage of the MacBook Pro due to some voiceover issues. I hope voiceover will become the professional screen reader in the future.

Hello, $500 alternate screen Reader, if available, at least is more affordable than window-based professional screen Reader. Please bear in mind that a powerful and portable window-based PC is competitively expensive as MacBook. Dell 13 XPS or Microsoft Surface Pro 4 are good example. They cost more than $1000.

I guess it all varies depending on what the person wants to do and if they can find a work around if something may not do what they want or need for it to do. That's one reason why I bott camped my Mac; so I can have both options of WINDOWS and Mac on my machine. This Tim Cook bashing needs to stop though.

I'm working on a MAC for lots of years now. But sadly, it got worse. In the Office I have a Windows Notebook and the truth is that with this device I'm so much faster. I realize it more and more.
The whole concept of keyboard navigation and so on just works better and a lot more consistent. So people say: if Safari doesn't work for you, just use Firefox. If Finder doesn't work for you when scrolling through bigger folders, just get another program. But for me that is not the way I want to work. With NVDA I can use Edge and lots of other stuff and it just reacts faster. On the MAC I still have trouble navigating on the Google site when using the arrow keys.
In iTunes VO starts speaking the title of a song when a new track starts. I don't want that at all. And sometimes it even just talks nonsense and I can't turn it off.
In German VO is still not able to say "at" when pressing "@". They fixed it a few years ago but the error came back. VO says "um". Makes no sense. When I press Command+F5 VO closes which is good. But when pressing Command+F5 again it often takes ages until VO comes back and it reacts badly. Same when I turn speech off and on again (double tab with two fingers).
The Mail app is terrible. Often it fails to navigate through more complicated mails or I can't reach attachments easily.
GarageBand got a lot worse over time, too. I stopped using it.
I used two MACBooks and reinstalled the original system several times. It didn't help.
Why am I saying this? I love my MACBook. It's surely the most beautiful hardware I've ever had. But it costs a lot of money and I'm disapointed that accessibility doesn't seem to be an important part of MAC OS anymore. So I would love to continue using it but why shouldn't I try to avoid problems? For years I'm sending Apple my findings and the things that disturbe my workflow. Nothing happened so far. So I'll continue enjoing the iPhone which works great. But my next computer will be surely Windows based.

I'm responding to the poster a few replies back, who asked if we'd purchase another Mac screen reader if one existed. My personal opinion is no. I started out on the Mac using OS X Mavericks, which I found to be pretty good but which did contain some bugs. But ever since then, at least for me Apple has made some great improvements to VoiceOver and their platform in general. However, developers aren't perfect no matter how hard they try. I'm not saying this to bash Tim Cook or anyone else, but the reality is nobody is perfect with the exception of whatever deity one believes in. Even that might be somewhat subjective. But back to Apple. I have as previously mentioned on this site, had great luck using my Mac and I highly commend the company for their dedication and commitment to accessibility. Perhaps I'll feel differently when I get going on the iPhone, who knows.

Hi,
I can't agree with Ekaj more. I've personally had great success with the mac for the past 7 years, since snow leopard. I've also used tiger and leopard, but boy the improvements that each release of mac os has implemented is astounding. Sure, some releases don't fix bugs like some of us want them to, but for my needs, the mac with VO works fine. I'd honestly rather use the mac ecosystem over windows any day, now that i've gotten familiar to it!

Also, just a quick follow up to last post. The iOS side of things is going great too. They both work flawlessly for me!

I'm also having no issues. Yes, there are bugs. Yes there are features I'd like to see. But overall, for me at least, Mac OS has worked wonderfully for the past three or so years. Would I use windows ifI had to? Yes, because it's a usable OS and I'm comfortable with it. But for me, for now at least, I'm mac all the way.

Right? I mean, for me, if I had to go back to windows, I guess I can. But, i just like how everything works in harmony on the mac side. Software an d hardware run so much better as opposed to windows which usually runs hotter, plus battery life is not nearly as good from what i've read/heard about.
Like i said earlier, everything has bugs, that's just the name of the game. If it was perfect, I'd be happy, but nothing is. I don't regret switching platforms to mac os one bit.