So now I am really curious, because this keeps coming up periodically. It came up again in a recent thread about using the Mac.
What are you people doing with your hands?
If I'm at a keyboard, my hands are on the home row, ready to type, unless I'm doing something else that's not on the keyboard, like getting a drink. But people keep lamenting the fact that you need two hands to use Voiceover, like it's some sort of obvious defect. I think I've probably done *something* or other on Windows with one hand, but nothing that particularly stands out.
One-handed typing jokes of old aside, seriously, what's going on? Assume you're in your single-handed happy place. You're doing all you can do on a keyboard to control things with one hand, go nuts, one finger even! What's your other hand doing that's so important? I don't get it. Clearly other folks are using their keyboard in a different way than I am.
But I mean, if I'm doing any kind of typing, two hands. Most audio games on Windows? Two hands, because you're usually using arrows and some other key, ctrl, space, and so on. The one thing I can readily think of where one-handed stuff comes up a fair bit is media playback, but even there, you're not getting it unless you remap keys a lot of the time.
I mean, I'm not saying it never comes up or anything. I'm just trying to think of like, basic screen reader controls, e.g. NVDA, and again, you're at least doing multiple keys, if not both hands all of the time, e.g. NVDA-down for say all which would be two hands if you don't have, or aren't using, a numpad with the insert key.
So please, enlighten me. What am I missing here? Because both hands on the keyboard feels super normal to me, and not like I'm living in a super intense eighties hacker movie or something.
I'll grant you that VO's keyboard shortcuts are more two-handed than NVDA's, for example, but I just don't get the wistfulness y'all have got going on for one-handed keyboard operation. I'm clearly missing something and I'd love to know what it is. As it happens, I'm running a Windows VM and I have access to NVDA and Narrator. So I'm happy to go compare operations between the three of them, although I am on a laptop keyboard, no numpad, in case that matters. I do have a keyboard with a numpad though, if that's really necessary to use for comparison, so I can do that no problem.
What's the stuff you're doing with one hand all the time? The stuff that makes you crazy if you can't do it? Does it come down to specific environments/tasks, or is it more general? I'm really interested to hear how people are working here.
Comments
Check Back After Your First Stroke
I'm not sure why you even posted this. Are you asking who would even need to type with only one hand? Do a search for one-handed typing and you'll see lots of OS features supporting this, courses on how to learn to touch type using only one hand, etc. Clearly, lots of people find themselves in that situation.
It's more about whether it is necessary
Having to hold down two keys on one side of the keyboard to arrow through elements is awkward. This has, to some extent, been fixed web quick nav on web applications even if it is a bit buggy.
The obvious comparison is windows where arrow keys alone do most of the heavy lifting and, if you think of just how many items we click through on a working day, the need to hold down modifier keys adds up.
voiceover for Mac, on the whole, is a bad design in stability, learnability, consistency and ergonomics.
I realise you were just trying to get a rise from other members of the forum. I rose. Hope you're satisfied. :)
The reasons seem pretty clear.
Obviously if you can only use one hand for whatever reason, sure. But I type with both hands, regularly. I also don't have the dexterity some people apparently have to use a phone with one hand entirely. Unless it's sitting on something, my phone is in one hand, and my other hand is doing whatever on the screen.
But clearly, not everybody's me. So yes. There may be all kinds of things to learn to touch type with one hand, I haven't seen them. And obviously as I've said, if you can only use one hand, I get it. But no, I don't get why J. Random Person would want to learn to touch type with one hand either. So you can start there if you like. What's it supposed to be doing for people?
Like I said in my post, this has come up a number of times. It's not just a couple of people lamenting the fact that Voiceover requires both hands, and I don't think they only have one hand or have had a stroke. It's clear from the posts that they *can* use VO with two hands, they just would rather not have to.
And I mean, you can do all sorts of interface stuff, right? If somebody was all, "I need to be able to control Voiceover entirely with a game controller!", I'd be wondering the same thing. I'll bet there's an entire Youtube rant about the awesomeness of controlling your OS with a game controller out there too. But that too, to me, would be a fairly unusual choice, and I'd want to know why you're advocating for that workflow.
I mean, let's be real here. We have things like eye tracking and breath switches and the like. But they're for very specific use cases. Nobody's going, "man you guys need to get behind controlling everything with only one switch"! Obviously if you need that, you need it, and I'm not saying it shouldn't happen or anything. But if somebody could use a standard keyboard, let's say, and was advocating for the awesomeness that is single switch control, I'd be asking the same questions. Why? What's so different about it that you prefer it?
It's not at all how I work, and the only way to learn things is to ask about them or try them, you know? I'm not going to take a month to figure out what I can and can't do with one hand on a keyboard because it just seems pointless to me, or I'm not *that* interested, take your pick. But there are obviously people here doing it and who prefer using their screen reader that way. May as well find out what they think about it all. It's no great mystery.
(Insert waving hand emoji here)
I've never really thought about it. My hands are either tucked underneath my thighs or I'm squishing my sides into my chair (I... think I like some deep pressure lol) or they're near the keyboard, if not on the keyboard. Just depends. But you do need 2 hands, more often than not, to operate VoiceOver? QuickNav tends to break in my experience so you can't just press H for heading as efficiently as you can on Windows, you have to go VoiceOver modifier and H. Yeah, there's the trackpad gestures, but I've never managed to get those to click into my head (despite easily learning VoiceOver on the iPhone). And I'm unfamiliar about the numpad gestures.
Possible (one-handed) tip for restoring Quick Nav functionality
While this will not stop Quick Nav from failing, I've found that I can quickly restore its functionality by pressing VO-F, and then pressing Escape to return focus to the active window, with no need to restart VoiceOver. I have a hunch that the bug that causes Quick Nav to spontaneously stop working has something to do with VoiceOver focusing on a text field (where key presses are not intercepted by the screen reader), and the environment switching before VoiceOver focus is manually moved out of the field, like when performing a search on a website or Command-Tabbing to another app.
Other SRs have modifiers too
VO is not the only one to use modifier for 90% of its operations, stop bullying the poor child.
Chromevox is exactly the same, and narrator too. Only Orca does a copy paste of both jaws and nvda, and it's arguably one of the best screen reader for this reason alone. It's only to have both ways of navigation equal, where as jaws as far as I know doesn't have a native object navigation mode like NVDA or it's very very hidden and unintuitive , and orca review mode is literally jaws cursor.
The title of this thread made me laugh lmao.
To answer the question, I honestly just use caps lock instead of ctrl option and it solves most of the inconveniences. Quick nav is horribly unreliable to be useful and it's more of an annoyance so I never use it. And I use globe + the number row for function keys with VO and globe tab for escape, such a flexibility is honestly one of the nicest thing touchbar brought to VO.
Re: Getting a rise.
Sort of yeah, but man I tried to make it a little funny.
But I'm also interested. Take the numpad, some people love it. I tried it. It was OK, but it's not like it was life-changing or anything. But some people really insist it is so much better. Why?
Well we're back to one hand again, aren't we? And I'm not going, "gods you people are so dumb for wanting to use the numpad"! I'm a lot like @theblindguy07. I'm using caps lock, so right there, you're really reducing the number of keys, which is related but not quite the same thing. But for most of the stuff I do, like I said, I'm hanging out on the home row anyway. Arrows are right down from it, so no problem, I'm just moving one hand a tiny bit.
But that's *my* workflow, yeah? Clearly others are doing something different, and it's really important to them. Because again, it comes up fairly regularly, I'd say every couple of months since I've been paying attention, one-handedness, or its lack, gets a mention by somebody or other as an issue.
And I mean, I'm with it. If people want to use a thing with one hand, awesome, and there should at least be the ability to do your own customizations to make it possible unless something really can't work another way. That's whether you need it because you lost a hand in a fight with a tiger you thought was a ghost, but oops it wasn't, or because you just don't want to have both hands on a keyboard.
If you can have that option, IMO you should *get* that option. That's especially true given Voiceover's age as a screen reader, it's mature enough now that you could throw some stuff like that in that isn't strictly speaking necessary, bugs notwithstanding.
That doesn't mean I understand why it seems to be such a thing for some people. I'd like to, because I'm curious, you know? Add to this if you think of typical sighted computer use, again, either both hands on the keyboard, or probably far more typical these days, one hand on the keyboard and another on the mouse. Or maybe that's just the people I hang out with. But that seems to be the standard pattern I hear about. So in that sense, VO doesn't strike me as particularly problematic, n terms of interface usage. Again, that's me. Other people obviously feel differently about it, hence the question.
Motor disabilities
Some folks have limited use in one or both of their hands. For them, the NumPad is more user friendly and intuitive than traditional 2-handed keystrokes.
Just saying...
Keypads
I am considering picking up a keypad or something where I can assign shortcuts. Those who use them tend to swear by them. Thinking it might be useful for gaming where I am using a controller and want to bind some controls. Thanks for the reminder actually, I might be able to find something in the black friday sales.
Re: disabilities.
Yes. A hundred percent. But again, I didn't get the impression that the people praising the numpad or talking about the joys of operating, say, Windows one-handed were in that camp. It seems to just be a thing people like, and that's great.
I don't think it's wrong or something. I just don't get the joys of using one hand and the animosity against not being able to. I mean, there have literally been posts where people just proclaimed this a a positive attribute of using Windows as opposed to the Mac. It didn't seem to be connected to disability, just, they liked that better. So again, I'm curious why that is. What are people's experiences? For all I know I'm missing something amazing.
I mean, as an example, take @Doll Eye's post. I own a game controller, but I've never thought, hey, can I map this to make the operating system do things? I use it for games. That's it, because that's what it's for. I can't really think of a reason why I'd want to map that specifically to do something else.
But what if there's a great application, like, I dunno, if you're trying to use a mouse, and this is a way easier way to manipulate the stuff a mouse traditionally implements? I've tried using a mouse a few times and I don't get it, it feels like you have to move it so far on the desk to get it to do anything that I can't imagine using it regularly. But obviously, way more sighted people than me use it every day.
So even though I won't be using a mouse regularly, for the obvious reason that it's visual and I'm not, that's something I'll probably ask about at some point.
Maybe I had something set wrong, maybe I wasn't moving it the right way, there are all sorts of possibilities. I still don't get how sighted people manage it though. It didn't seem like a comfortable interface at all. But they do, all the time. Now I'm going to have to hook one up and see if it's any better/different on the Mac!
as someone who came from windows, my thoughts
Disorienting, yes, impossible to use? No, just takes sitting down and getting used to it, it might have some inefficiency, but it's not the massive world ending thing it is, turn on quicknav, use arrow keys to navigate, press both up and down arrows to click on something, there, problem solved, yes, there are things that require control options to work properly, but you can use capslock you know. And NVDA object nav is as bad because you need a numpad or to also hold capslock to do things. Honestly I think it actually boils down to expectations and inpatiance, guy uses mac, sees different combo, gets overwhelmed by all the new stuff, think ok, this is frustrating, let me get angry, he gets angry, and he naturally keep getting furious every time he uses it so he gets no progress whatsoever towards understanding or getting used to how to use the thing because it's always clouded under complaints and anger, macos has big problems but shortcuts isn't really one of them.
Moderator's Note
Hi all,
For transparency, I wanted to let everyone know that one (1) comment was removed from this thread, due to the comment containing joking of a sexual nature. As a reminder, AppleVis caters to a wide audience including people of all ages, backgrounds, cultures, and lived experiences; and it is our goal to make our platform a safe and welcoming place for everyone. When including humor in your posts, please consider the audience and avoid including jokes that may be offensive or inappropriate.
A Few of My Reasons
Granted, my situation is not the norm, but I'll add my two cents for the fun of it.
If I'm doing heavy reading, I like to keep one hand on my braille display and the other on the keyboard for navigational purposes. Quick Nav usually works for me, but it isn't perfect, and sometimes, I find myself needing to use both hands on the keyboard.
As an added bonus, I have a chronic issue with my right hand that gets aggravated by too many repetitive movements, like typing. Because of this, I don't love using both hands for long periods of time.
So, I understand why some people might not be overly thrilled with VoiceOver's heavy use of modifier keys. In particular, I can see why those new to VoiceOver, who don't yet know about things like the keyboard accessibility features, custom command mapping, or Quick Nav, might be frustrated.
My first computer ran Windows. In 2011, when I started experimenting with the Mac, VO commands were vastly different than JAWS commands, even more so than today. Unless I was writing, I was used to keeping one hand still, and the other tapping an arrow key or a letter to move around.
The learning curve was steep at first, but I liked MacOS enough to push through it. For some people, that's not the case.
Really interesting stuff, thanks!
See I didn't even think of braille displays, probably because most of the ones I've seen have a Perkins-style keyboard. SO I assumed you'd just be navigating from that.
Also I learned that yes indeed, I was using a mouse wrong. I don't know how and I probably won't play with it enough to find out, but so I'm told, you don't have to move the mouse far at all to get to things and generally you don't have to pick it up that much to reset the position, I did when I tried one, pretty frequently.
Also, totally get it with hand mobility. I had trigger finger in both hands, so they told me to minimize typing until I got surgery. This was back when I was on Windows. I did a *lot* of reading, load something and hit say all and let it run on its merry way. I don't think the VO modifiers would have been a huge issue, but that's only because the fingers I had it on wouldn't have been involved much.
But to sort of get at my thinking, again considering this as a preference and not a necessity:
I absolutely get that, as an example, if I use the numpad, I hit two to interact and eight to stop interacting, instead of caps lock down and up arrows. First, for me, as I've said, I'm on the home row most of the time. So lock is right there, I can just hit it. Also if I use a numpad, I'm moving off of that home row, so if I need to type, I have to move back. I also have to move back with the arrows, but it's a much shorter distance. Plus I ended up skipping the numpad because I wanted the desk space, and AFAIK it's useless for the iPhone, no numpad commander equivalent. So it also keeps the keyboard commands more consistent.
There you go. There's a bit of my reasoning for not getting something that lets me use single key commands. I didn't use laptop layout for NVDA, in fact when I was on Windows I made sure to get a laptop with a numpad. But for the Mac, it just didn't seem as relevant. For something like NVDA it's not just object nav, but all of the review functions too.
It's kind of interesting to think about how the environment affects things like that. I also see Emperor's point, I tried Mac a couple times over the years and gave up fairly quickly because it was so different. I don't know what made it click this time, but I think part of it was that I just got into the mindset of, yes it's going to be different, and I tried to embrace that. I think using a Bluetooth keyboard with iPhone a bit here and there helped too, a lot of the commands are the same.
All hail the numpad
To give a straight answer to the question - not a lot. My other hand just sits there. I've probably used the reason that "I can do everything one-handed" in favour of the numpad but maybe that's not exactly the reason I like it.
In some ways it's a bit like using a keyboard vs a games console controller. Both are fine for playing. a game, but something that just serves a particular purpose just feels better. With the numpad, it is just my VoiceOver controller. In rare occasions I can toggle it back for typing numbers, but really it is just there to serve that one purpose.
It is also just faster and more efficient to use. Maybe some of this is because I never learned to touch type, and although I've tried to remedy that in later life, old habits are just too deeply ingrained. So my typing is bad. On the numpad, it is just all self-contained. My fingers don't travel far and I don't find myself hitting the wrong keys often.
There are obviously lots of ways to control the Mac. I appreciate the default ones. Many like VO+Cmd+Shift+H to jump back a heading seem almost crazy to perform and do require a readjustment of the fingers to pull off but I like that they don't interfere with anything else.
I have always thought single key nav was a really poor way to control a screen reader. This is likely because I have never used Windows much as a blind user, but I've always hated that I have to keep shuffling between one mode and another and that buttons do entirely different things based on context. I am sure you get used to it, and I never have, but it just feels clumsy. I don't want to start a Windows vs Mac thing yet again, but I know if I press NumPad 0 plus 5 that I am going to the next heading. I'm not going to suddenly start typing "hhhhh" into the address bar by mistake. And I'm not going to have to turn off that behaviour so I can use a web page's own keyboard commands. The NumPad is just dedicated to the cause.
So for me it isn't really having one hand free, it's making the whole thing simpler, faster and less error prone.
Before I discovered it, I also used regular quick nav with the arrow keys. That was pretty good - I was amazed by how much you can do with just four keys. But the rotor isn't particularly efficient so I switched to the numpad and never looked back.
Quicknav
Thing is, QuickNav isn't a set and forget function. It's just another layer of complexity in an already over-complex solution. VoiceOver on Mac, by a country mile, is the worst of all the mainstream screen readers, and requiring holds... Nay, grapples, to do things, and to avoid this you have to turn on a function that only works in certain situations is just really bad design.
I've come to the conclusion that they've got interns working on VoiceOver for Mac. It needs to be simplified to the level of VoiceOver for iOS in which you can indeed turn on Quick Nav and set it and forget it. Navigation on iOS is a delight, the trouble is, it's highly limited when it comes to work and still has text editing issues.
I also accept that the GUI on Mac, by design, is a visual interface and, in whatever minimal wisdom Apple Accessibility had/has, they decided we needed a multitude of modes to navigate. I was in VoiceOver Utility earlier and reflecting that, when you're in the list, the most obvious way to get to that information is to tab across... Nope, that would be too obvious. You have to drill up. I know this isn't one-handed, but it's unneeded extra presses. This is not how it works in Windows. I'm just baffled by what they think this achieves. The learning curve and the inconsistency is obscene.
The latest thing of having a pause before reading links is just another example of their ineptitude. I truly think they're trying to make Safari as bad as possible just so we leave it and stop complaining. The team in charge of 'fixing' that issue should be fired. I'm exhausted with stupidity from a self-righteous company. They make a lot of great products. They make a lot of great versions of VoiceOver, this is their worst product by far. I'd not wish it on anyone. It’s cruel.
Also, numpads, I've put one on my Xmas list, a KeyCron. We'll have to see if that helps this dumpster fire in any way.
@Doll Eye
I can get your point, but I think about the interaction problem this is really a preference issue. Yes, quick nav is something I turnon only by accident ant disable it after, because I can't trust this feature that is so so broken.
But yeah, VoiceOver is just, VoiceOver.
Re: quick nav
I'm not sure what constitutes quick nav these days. Originally it was a combination of the four arrow keys plus single letter nav. I think single letter nav is now something in its own right. I just think of quick nav now as the four arrow keys but maybe that's not right.
At any rate I have never bothered with single key nav on the Mac. I believe they changed it so that when a text box has focus the keys become normal again but there are often posts on here complaining that it doesn't work properly.
But as I said, I think it is problematic having keys that perform differently depending on context. It means if I am in a text box my key to jump to the heading no longer works. I must switch mode or tab away or do something else first. And I must mentally keep track of the mode to avoid typing in where I don't mean to.
If I am using Bitbucket on Windows to review a pull request, I use J and K to move files. But I also need to jump to heading to get to the file contents. So I am forever having to switch between modes to move around. This is where the numpad really shines. All that fiddliness goes away.
I have similar issues with tab and shift_tab as a way to move around. It will be working quite nicely then I end up in a multiline text box and suddenly I am inserting tabs or changing indentation levels and I must use some other means to escape.
I realise it is just a matter of getting used to something but it just doesn't feel particularly good to me.
What the NumPad doesn't do is fix all VoiceOver bugs, sadly, but my experience with VO definitely improved once I discovered it.
And importantly it leaves one hand free to worry the forum moderators with.
Quick nav, and my thoughts on one-handed use
so, I'm the guy in the room, the other guy, who's grown up using both hands for the keyboard. I went through the usual computer school phase, typing with both hands on the home row keys and everything is just accessible from there. I never did get used to the NumPad even though learning to use it was definitely part of the curriculum. so when people start touting the joys of a NumPad with VoiceOver, I'm totally at sea because I simply never did use it much. Quick nav is the mode I go to by default, courtesy of a Windows upbringing, but I can definitely use the default VO behavior. I just find it a bit limiting and probably need to dig further into it. Example: I have no real idea how to find headings in VO besides using single-letter quick nav or the rotor. so to answer the OP/s original question: both hands are usually on the keyboard unless I'm doing something else like reading or playing the occasional part of a game that I can manipulate with one hand e.g. walking around the game world with arrow keys while I drink a cup of coffee.
Browse mode/focus mode versus VoiceOver for Mac
One huge difference between VoiceOver for Mac, and just about every other computer screen reader out there, is the inclusion of browse mode and focus mode. Let me explain...
window screen readers have this function called browse/focus mode. The ability to do single letter navigation that we all love in Windows, or perhaps some of us hate in Windows, or the ability to do work processing in pretty much anything with an edit field, is due to this functionality. It works like this, you press your screen reader key (caps-lock for instance) and spacebar, to switch between the two modes, browse or focus.
Browse mode gives us the single letter navigation. Allowing us to jump by headings with one letter, links with another, etc. this also allows us to do single letter search/navigation within the OS, such as when we are in file explorer and trying to get to, say a file that starts with the letter D. Pressing D, in this example, would jump to the first item that starts with that letter, which I'm sure everyone here is familiar with, regardless of OS.
Focus mode allows for word processing on anything with an edit field. This mode also allows us to work with web applications, such as Google's applications such as Docs, Sheets, Slides, or even YouTube's player controls.
Not only do all screen readers on windows have this ability, but it even works on Orca for Linux.
Yet, Apple decided to have the hot key for browse/focus mode be the activate action instead. Sure, there's single key navigation, and arrow navigation. However, it sounds like Apple turned what is a significant feature on every other computer screen reader, into a dumpster fire.
What do you all think?
Edit: removed ChromeVox from the list above.
@Brian
I disagree. ChromeVox is what VO could be on the web as it uses similar navigation methods, and more importantly, the screen reader selection commands actually work. This is how why I loved so much chromevox as a potential indicator even if the os is... well, nothing more than a browser with a weird terminal linux subsystem nobody actually uses for real work.
Browse vs focus mode
It probably depends where where you are starting from. I started using a screen reader with the Mac and the focus vs browse mode has been something I strongly dislike on Windows. It is what I was complaining about before. Actually I think the choice of control is a very strong feature of the Mac.
The way I approach the Mac is that I have the default way of doing things. You can probably customise this but I think you would have to be crazy. This is what I would expect to use if I started up a new Mac. It's just normal. But it's not efficient and it does require some finger gymnastics.
Using these commands I have no need to switch between focus and browse modes because the key shortcuts are all different. The two modes are solving the problem I mentioned before where you have keys doing different things in different contexts which I find quite ugly.
But if I want to really get productive on the Mac I probably won't be using these for long. I'll be finding something that suits me better. For me that is the NuPad. And I see it as mine to do as I please, so I have customised it quite a lot so the things I use a lot are within easy reach. I don't use VO+Space, I use 5 for example. And I feel confident doing whatever I want with it because I am not changing any of the default commands.
But you also have the choice of single key nav, or quick nav or track pad or what used to be keyboard commander. The latter is what I use for opening applications ≠or changing settings.
I suspect NVDA and JAWS do give you a lot of customisation but I find on the Mac it has given me safe spaces to do what I want without messing things up or without finding myself unable to ask for help from someone because my setup is too weird, or being unable to use a new Mac because it doesn't work as I would expect.
Going back to the original question, Space and Enter are probably the most obvious keys to do something important - for starters they are the biggest. For the Mac to waste VO+Space on switching single key nav on and off would, to me, be a waste because that's a function I dont particularly care for.
I guess you can also look at it from the other side. On Windows there is no particular need for a VO+Space equivalent as most of the time you would use Space or Enter to perform some action, although it's not always clear to me what that is going to do. Usually you should use Enter I think, but sometimes that will submit a form entirely which may not be what is expected.
I don't think there is any good reason to have different modes for focus and browse unless you are having to use keys for purposes other than what they are designed for.
Anyway back down the rabbit hole we go....
@TheBlindGuy07
Fair enough. After looking over the hotkeys on this webpage, I would have to agree with you.
I kind of like focus mode.
But now I might have to seriously consider messing with the numpad, because I have typed hhh into an edit field. This is why I like the Windows toggle, one of the first things I do with NVDA is turn off the functionality that automatically enters focus mode when it hits an edit field.
I've also turned off the quick nav arrows toggle. I'm using caps lock and the arrows unless I'm on the web or in Finder. On the web I just hit VO-q to toggle on single letter quick nav to get access to headings mostly.
BTW, thanks to everybody but Esp. @Mr. Grieves. This is exactly the kind of thing I was wondering about and his IMO excellent paeans to the usefulness of the numpad were really informative. It's not just, I like this better, which is also perfectly fine, but the reasoning behind it. And now I'm seriously considering busting out the other Bluetooth keyboard with a numpad on it to give it a try. Maybe it's not solving enough for me to use it full time, the big thing is hitting multiple 'h's in an edit field, but now I'm at least curious to give it another shot.
Oh but here's a counterpoint. I'm focused on the standard keyboard for a few reasons.
1. Saves a bit of space, means I can fit more midi junk on the desk.
2. Compatibility with the iPhone, if I'm using a BT keyboard there I don't think I can set up numpad stuff for it.
3. If I upgrade to a Mac Book, but I got really into the numpad, I'd need to have an extra thing with me, USB or Bluetooth numpad, because it doesn't have one. It does have the trackpad obviously, but that's why I haven't bothered buying one of those to play with for the Mac Mini. I'm still not sure if I'm upgrading to a newer mini or a Mac Book. So if I go with the second option, then I have an extra trackpad lying around that I won't really use anymore.
NumPads are nye universal
When I was taught JAWS professionally, it was on Windows 7 and JAWS 13, or 14... I forget which... but the layout was Desktop mode, which utilized the Insert key and the NumPad as the primary interface for KB interactions.
Even way back when, the NumPad was a game changer. In my college days, when I was all-in for MacOS, I used a USB NumPad and that, too, was a game changer.
Interestingly enough, I have grown used to the Laptop layout with my current NVDA setup, but Laptop layout is easy mode on Windows. 🤷
Re: Universal numpads.
Not so much anymore, I don't think. They're certainly harder to find on laptops, and I'm pretty sure laptops are outselling desktops at this point, though I can't remember where I read it. My wife found this though, because she's better at googling than I am.
https://www.idc.com/promo/pcdforecast/
Check out the table. Notebooks and various forms of tablets are hammering desktops. So that potentially means carrying around an extra numpad. Not really a problem, especially if it's super useful for you, but it is something to think about going forward, I'd say.
It's certainly doable, it's not like they're huge or anything, well I've never seen an external one but given folding keyboards and stuff these days I'm sure you can find a small/thin one that takes up minimal space.
I ended up getting the Magic keyboard, not the full one with the numpad, because I wasn't really using it. I knew it wasn't happening on the Mac Book so when I switched I deliberately ignored the numpad to see what it would be like in case that's what I decided to upgrade to. So as you can see I really do try to overthink this kind of thing, LOL!
I mean it is pretty important after all. I think I will grab the Bluetooth keyboard that does have one and play around with it for a while though, I'm intrigued. But like I said, no numpad for the iPhone. So do I want potential user-friendliness, or the maximum consistency with commands? It's a conundrum!
Misunderstood
I was simply stating that NumPads are useful and useable, regardless of OS. ChromeOS may, or may not, be the exception here. 🤷
As for size, you can likely find one relatively the dimensions of an iPhone+.
Re: Numpads.
Ah! I get you now. It is interesting to think of them the other way. I think they got universally useful because screen reader manufacturers assumed they were mostly useless for the blind, the blind not doing a ton of numeric data entry. Now that things are moving more toward smaller form factors, I wonder how long it will be before they're largely gone as a standard inclusion?
I was just playing around in keyboard help and note that, at least on Mac, things like fn-i are unmapped. I know some of those get used on Windows laptops, I think fn-l was scroll lock on mine, but it's sort of interesting that no screen reader takes advantage of that for a laptop layout, that I'm aware of anyway.