Hi all!
So, posted over on the apple side of things and not having much joy. I'm thinking of taking the plunge and picking up a microsoft laptop 13 as my writing laptop but, this is only if microsoft word works flawlessly with either narrator or NVDA, the prior is prefered as I really like the natural voices.
Any views and experiences?
Thanks
Comments
Works pretty much perfect with NVDA
I only use Narrator if things go badly but it is definitely usable. I use Word with NVDA often. Same with Excel. Perhaps JAWS would be better for more complex things (though I'm not sure what, and I'm unsure on what things NVDA can't handle). Definitely go for it - if I give a dig at Mac, it's so much better than Pages + VoiceOver **in my opinion**.
NVDA Works Great
Hello,
I transcribe Tibetan texts into Latin characters using word and NVDA. I cannot think of anything more challenging to create in word. There is the line of Tibetan characters scanned in, followed by a line of transliterated Tibetan characters, followed by a line of the English translation. All from a Tibetan prayer book scanned using OpenBook. Using NVDA!
On a further note, there is an NVDA tutorial for using Word with NVDA for a quite reasonable amount. I think it was $25, and it took me about three hours to get through it. There are additional tutorials for the other Microsoft 365 applications like Excel, and so on.
In excel, I have a spreadsheet with multiple bread formulars for my baking. I modify the number of loaves and the weight of each loaf in grams, and the table below tells me exactly how many grams of flour, water, salt yeast, etc. I need for the recipe. So excel is also quite manageable using NVDA.
Your friendly deaf-blind Tibetan monk,
feofil
No Complaints Here
Oliver, what is a microsoft laptop 13?
No Complaints Here
Oliver, what is a microsoft laptop 13?
Re: Word & NVDA
Hi,
Word works amazingly well with NVDA. By itself, it is pretty great. With the following add-on, it is absolutely phenomenal.
Word access enhancement:
https://nvda-addons.org/addon.php?id=151
From the add-on page ...
Another tip for you, Oliver
Document Formatting Rotor:
https://github.com/derekriemer/nvda-documentFormattingRotor#document-formatting-rotor-for-nvda
From the GitHub page ...
This is the reason
Screen-reader support for productivity apps, console terminals, web browsing, and development tools is precisely why I recommend Windows over macOS to most blind people. It does have other things that I value, which is why it's my daily driver as well as why I spend so much money on Macs, but those things are generally not very relevant to most people.
my vote for Word
Hi Oliver,
I'd definitely recommend a combination of NVDA and Narrator for Word. I do have JAWS here but only because it's an extra tool in case something still doesn't work for whatever reason. But since JAWS is moving to an outragiously priced subscription model, and after the 31st October you won't be able to buy the perpetual licence, and there's no guarantee the SMA will still be around in a few years, I wouldn't recommend going down that road at all. And Brian thanks for the NVDA add-ons for Word, will check those out. I remember being able to deal with track changes and comments with a combination of Narrator and NVDA before, but with those NVDA add-ons it'll be even easier.
thank you all. It does sound…
thank you all. It does sound like, as I'm an author, a windows machine is going to be a better work machine. it's just finding the right one now.
The Microsoft Laptop 13 is their latest offering. The Screen isn' as good as on the 13.8, neither is the processor or the style of hard drive. It's a clipped version, if you will, of their main offerings, the 13.8 and 15 inch.
They are expensive though, same price as macbook airs.
Any comments on tablets? I'm thinking that this might cut costs a little if I pair with a nice bluetooth keyboard. I'm aware the microsoft surface pro is a thing, but it's very expensive, and even more so with its keyboard cover.
Are their limitations of tablet based windows? Are their benefits? Is it a good media device, for example?
Sorry to be asking all the dumb questions.
Re: Questions
Is there a particular reason you need the laptops you mentioned above? Are you specifically looking for "stock Windows OS"? Regarding tablets, I would recommend a surface or surface pro over anything else tablet wise. Ultimately it boils down to exactly what your needs are, of course. NVDA is compatible with touchscreen devices, so at least you are in luck there. Also, and much like iOS, you can assign your own touch gestures to various functions within NVDA as well, both for keyboard and touch gestures.
Personally, I would recommend checking out Amazon for laptop deals, as windows 11 makes it very easy to uninstall unwanted bloatware, you really don't need to waste the extra money on "stock Windows" these days. Of course, everyone has their own preferences, so to each their own.
So to summarize, if you want a decent laptop, that's both powerful, yet cost-effective, check out Amazon for laptop deals. If you want a tablet, go with a Surface model, because if it's going to be your primary workhorse, you're going to want both quality and functionality. You absolutely do not want to try writing professionally on a cheapo tablet.
Tablet
You're a writer and a Windows tablet does not seem to offer versatility a writer may need. You may write from the comfort of your couch or from a train seat, your lap may not accommodate a tablet with keyboard and a flap thing in the back to hold it. I have a keybaord case for my iPad and writing while on the go is such a horrible thing.
Really fair point!
yeah, I think a laptop will have to do the trick.
It's just hard finding one. I want something that is comfortable to type on, great speakers and fantastic build. As I'm not going to be gaming the processor doesn't have to be nuts.
does anyone have any other thoughts aside from my assumption that microsoft would be the best for their own platform?
Be leery of that one
The Microsoft Laptop 13 has a SnapDragon processor. Voracious Brain, a user here on AppleVis, does not recommend the Microsoft Surface Laptop 7 due to the Prism emulation. So be leery of the Laptop 13 as it might use the same SnapDragon processor.
Windows Laptops
I recommend staying with the x86 (read Intel or AMD) platform and not going Arm. Yes Arm has the best battery life but even Intel laptops are fine now. And there are just enough software quirks yet I don't feel Arm is ready for prime time. SO yes Microsoft has some Surface laptops with Intel processors. They are good laptops, etc. But in the Windows world there are many many good options. Dell, Acer, Asus, HP, Samsung, Lenovo (the famous ThinkPad line known for its keyboards). Speakers are a subjective thing and I have pretty bad hearing, nevertheless I currently find Samsung GalaxyBook Pro to have some of the better laptop speakers especially for speech output. In these manufactuers you can find laptops at every price point. Budget sensitive may want to check Amazon for Dell, Acer, Asus...
Thanks all. I had a big bout…
Thanks all. I had a big bout of SNR this morning and pulled the trigger on an Asus Zenbook 14 with the Ultra 9 286H chip, 32 gb ram and 1 TB drive. It's quite a bit more than I would usually have spent, but I feel it's important I don't skimp out. I tried a Microsoft Go 3 laptop a couple of years back and it was just a bit pants, because it was cheap. I'm now testing like for like between my MacBook Air and this Zenbook.
I will be interested in how I fill in workflows such as the really useful handoff from iPhone to Mac with passwords or copy and paste, but also using apps that are completely inaccessible. At the moment I use VOCR to access Bambu Studio on Mac, which is a 3d model slicer and control app. I'm not sure what the Windows equivalent is going to be.
To be honest, the likelihood is I'll have to have both, Mac for programming and engineering projects and Windows for work and, dare I say it, playing some games.
Again, thank you all for your help.
Re: OCR
You get a number of choices for OCR with windows. Obviously, there's the be my eyes windows app. I personally like it, although as I understand that there is a bug when trying to sign onto it through Apple or Google. Overall however, it's a fabulous application. There's also a few NVDA add-ons for this, such as cloud vision, AI content describer, and so on.
On a sidenote, that Asus sounds sexy! Since you will likely be going with Office and OneDrive, you can potentially have 2 TB of storage, one terabyte on board, and one terabyte in the cloud. Just think of all of the things you will have to write to fill up that space! 😀
The Zenbook
I’ve used the Zenbook S14 before, and it was excellent—lightweight with phenomenal battery life. That said, the model I had came with lower specs, which likely contributed to its longer runtime. Hopefully, the phantom of Mac hardware won’t follow you whenever you’re on the Asus, though it’s hard to deny that the MacBook Air has the edge, offering a noticeably more premium feel compared to the Zenbook S14.
If you want a good laptop,…
If you want a good laptop, at least avoid intel and go for amd x86. IMO you could also avoid hp, but a very active user in this current thread could disagree with me :) though I'm happy to debate having bought a $3000 hp laptop this is not the place.
Yeah, word and virtually all microsoft office desktop apps works great with nvda, jaws does some things better with powerpoint for example, in a slideshow jaws will render the cont properly in a virtual web view like thing whereas tables will be flattened with nvda as of writing.
IMO as much as I dislike this for accessibility alone office is still worth paying.
One more pro-tip for you, Oliver
One thing you will absolutely want to do is figure out your FN key settings in conjunction with the function keys on your keyboard. Some laptops, maybe even most laptops these days, have a FN lock feature, either a hardware button, or a combination Hotkey shortcut. In the event that you end up with a laptop without either, this can also be done in the bios via PowerShell.
Tara made a post about this last year, which can be found at the link below. It is fairly straightforward and not too difficult to achieve.
https://applevis.com/forum/windows/using-powershell-configure-bios-windows
If you’re going to need both
I’m just curious, but, if you’re going to need both, why didn’t you put windows on a VM on your MacBook?
The biggest issue I’ve had with it is not getting the insert key mapped correctly. I find it slightly embarrassing because I’m the one who fixes everyone else’s computer issues but that’s beside the point. Anyway, I use an external keyboard as a work around. The 0 on the numpad works as an insert key. You could probably just get a Bluetooth numpad and do the same thing.
Anyway, it’s a much cheaper option than a new laptop, so I thought I would throw the idea out there.
This is why I bought a Windows system
I just purchased a Windows system a couple of weeks ago, to run MS Word. I plan to use NVDA. I'm still coming up to speed on it because I have other things on my plate. But I purchased the NVDA MS Word tutorial eBook from NVAccess, AUS$35. And I joined their groups.io list.
I bought a desktop, as I plan to run a Linux web server on virtualization software. The Windows 11 desktop came with some bloatware, and I can confirm that was easy to uninstall. So a laptop or tablet should work fine for your needs.
I worked a tech writing job last summer using MS Word on the Mac. Had to work out an arrangement with the editor to avoid Track Changes and Comments, which are unusable on Apple Mac, Platform of Artists. My new computer means this won't be a problem going forward.
If things work out, I expect I have purchased my last Mac. Apple could win me back by showing more concern for productivity tools than frivolous bling.
Comments in Word
Just did a little testing with Comments in a Word doc.
The keystrokes to add and enter a comment are Windows / Word shortcuts that work for both Narrator and NVDA. However, there is an NVDA shortcut to read the comment text (using the NVDA key), and none for Narrator that I know of. Also, NVDA will announce the presence of a comment as you cursor through text, while Narrator does not. Just based on this quick test, I will be using NVDA going forward.
And now Windows is installing an update. So here I am. I have returned to the dark side.
Welcome to the Darkside
We have cookies. 🍪😇
Paul, be sure to check out those add-ons I posted above. I think you will find them quite useful for your writing needs.
OMG Paul and Oliver bought PCs!
Wow, Paul? Really? and Oliver??? All we need now is Mr. Grieves switching teams!
I am also a writer and former academic and use word 5+ hours a day, 5+ days a week, and have done so since the turn of the century.
You can also find me here on many threads touting that third-party screen reader developers spend *most* of their time coping with whatever Microsoft throws into Office so that it has unmatched accessibility. NVDA doesn't quite get it right in all cases, but it's top tear (Jaws is better, but Tara speaks truth, as always). I'd stick with NVDA 2025.1. I've had to revert to this version, because 2025.2 (current stable) and 2025.3 beta have made Word unusable for me when going in and out of browse mode to navigate complex documents.
Comments work well, but one has to figure it out. As an academic, that's how I provided feedback on papers.
what you'll be facing is the Copilot key insanity. Look at some of the recent threads a lot of the folks above have been a part of. Asus is not one of the brands that seem able to give you a right-control key, from what I can glean. Never heard anything good about their keyboards, either. But hope you have a great experience.
The Surface Laptop 13 has unmatched ergonomic hardware, except for the processor: I have the 13.8, and the 13-inch would have been preferable. Huge problem is the Fn key implementation, on which I've had much to say. I and NVDA developers both know how to announce that key now, but it isn't easy to implement using NVDA, and it gets in the way, particularly for Mac users used to pressing control shut-up, because that's what toggles Fn lock. Search recent Windows threads for more info if you try that computer. Surface keyboard signifantly beats MBA, which I also have. If I had it to do over, though, I'd get a Lenovo Yoga slim 7i for battery life, Fn key handling (another thread with most of us on that), and the ability to remap the Copilot key with a simple hack. Lenovo isn't what it used to be, but I think it's still the best PC brand.
I switched from Ulysses back to Word because it's more accessible and I found ways of doing everything I liked about Ulysses sheet navigation and annotation in Word, particularly after creating some visual basic macros. Feel free to PM me for tips.
Documentation
Although I can completely understand switching to Windows for the productivity applications, as well as all the other cases that I mentioned earlier, I still don't understand why people in an academic or professional setting are not using LaTeX, Typst, Markdown, or any other kind of document format combinations that are both open and easy to parse.
Speaking of Markdown
This NVDA add-on might be of use to the professional writers among us.
Markdown to HTML Converter:
https://github.com/s-toolkit/markdown-to-html-converter-nvda-addon/#markdown-to-html-converter-for-nvda
From the GitHub page ...