A Case for Bootcamp on M Macs

And I'd like them to back it up in any way whatsoever. So far I'm able to do everything on Mac that I could on Windows, barring games naturally, and I haven't really noticed anything slowing me down. To be fair, I think part of this is the changing nature of Windows programs. For instance, in LibreOffice, to add a footnote, I have to go into a menu and find that, type the note, and do whatever to get out of it. Looking at Pages briefly, because I haven't done anything with it, footnotes are also in a menu, the insert menu.

That's just one example, but it is a more complicated writing task. I was sort of getting at this when I asked about switching from Windows, and honestly I was a little disappointed because I was expecting all kinds of horror stories. Instead, I always see vague statements like, Windows is "more productive". Why? I'd like to see actual specifics for once.

If you really want Windows, buy a Windows machine, or run a virtual machine under MacOS. Those are your only choices, and likely to remain so. Most Mac users don't want to run Windows on their Apple devices, so neither Apple nor Microsoft is motivated to invest engineering effort to enable Windows to run on Apple's ARM architecture without virtualization.
I agree with the comment that Windows isn't necessarily better for productivity.

Subject says it all. Of course I would love to see it, as running a VM just isn't the best experience, but as others have already pointed out, it would seem that none of the parties involved are motivated enough to make it happen.

vmware is completely free now for everybody. it is nice and accessible to use, and runs windows 11 arm fantastically. i use it nearly every day to run windows on my macbook air. and no, arm windows has not had any problems running x86 / x64 coded programs at all. every single thing i've done on windows arm, feels exactly like windows on intel. if anything, it's running faster than any of my windows machines. lol. i don't think bootcamp is going to make a comeback, given that vms are doing so well on apple hardware now. i honestly for the first time ever, can say that i don't think i'll be purchasing another windows computer myself. perhaps some little thing as an entertainment system or something, but that's about it. and i'd honestly just buy a base model mac mini for that now days, especially with 16 gb ram minimum now, you can run a vm on that and still have loads of room for running mac apps as well.

I agree VMWare is nice, and is accessible, but with the base m1, only 8 gb ram, it isn't quite enough.

I'm still using my 2011 Macbook Pro, so I whole-heartedly agree with the original poster that macs just have better build quality; had other computers, but none have even come close to lasting as long as this machine. I primarily use it as a windows 10 machine for playing audio games, but I definitely prefer the mac side of things for e-mail in particular. I keep hoping Bootcamp will return someday. I quite frankly don't have the skills to set up a virtual machine, and when I first got this computer, a friend tried to set up a virtual machine and it was a complete disaster, so I don't consider that a viable option. I also can't justify owning two computers, even if I had room to have two computer setups. So yes, I'm really hoping that bootcamp comes back someday. Otherwise, when this computer becomes unusible, I have no clue what I'm going to do; I suppose I'd have to try to track down the most recent/affordible intel-based mac I can find on ebay. Praying it won't come to that for at least a few more years.

Voiceover is not so coplicated compaired to NVDA or Jaws. I don't understand the complaints about quick nav or other alternative methods, basically they are not different from jaws or NVDA. As I remember, Jaws also has something like Quick nav mode by pressing incert+z.

Not a jab at you, Khomus, but I'm more productive on Windows. I find it a more efficient system where things just work compared to MacOS, where I was frustrated to tears many times (granted, it's not the best platform to first learn how to use a screen reader). For example, creating different heading levels on Word with Windows just requires Control + Alt + 1, 2 or 3, whereas on MacOS on Pages, it requires jumping between the editor and formatter, drilling down to the paragraph styles, selecting the desired heading level, using the shortcut to copy and paste that style. Unless there's a shorter way I'm not aware of.

I definitely do think they need to bring back Bootcamp. Messing around with keyboard hotkeys so they work across a Windows VM and MacOS sounds too frustrating for me, personally. I just don't have the patience for it.

I think all of the "known" screen readers have some version of QuickNAV; NVDA included. It has been said many times here on AppleVis, that there really isn't any system that is better than the other. The "best" system out there, is the system that works for "you". Period.
Also, asking for proof on which system is better does not really work here. See statement above ...

Now as for the original topic of this thread, I agree that it would be wonderful if BootCamp or something similar was around for the M series max. Back in my college days, I did Boot Camp with my Intel MBP, and honestly it was like having two separate computers to do my schoolwork with. I've said this on another thread, but I did most of my regular academic stuff with macOS, or OS X as it was called at the time, and my IT stuff with windows OS.

Somebody said here that if you want a Windows machine, just buy a Windows machine. As it stands for right now, that is pretty much your best choice if you want to work within the windows environment. Virtualization can be useful, and I know a lot of people use it, and even enjoy using it, but it can also be a real hassle to set up. Not to mention resource intensive and the list of other known issues when dealing with virtualization.

Finally, and I apologize to the editorial team if I am breaking any rules here, but can we all stop with OS shaming one another? Does it matter if one person on here prefers Windows OS, while others on here prefer macOS? As I said above, and will say again, the only true ideal system, is a system that works for a "you".

Thank you for reading. 🙂✌️

Someone from Apple said I believe in 2021 that the hardware is capable of running Windows, but it's up to Microsoft to make that happen. Since Microsoft now offers an official version of the Windows on ARM ISO, I'm curious if we're getting closer to that? I'm tempted to try making a bootable Windows on ARM USB drive and seeing if I can boot my M4 Mac mini. Even if it works and I could install it, I assume I'd have all kinds of driver issues, and unlike an Intel Mac, there aren't any drivers to install. Here's the page from Microsoft.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows11arm64

For those of you that want a Windows on ARM machine, I highly recommend the Surface Laptop 7. I love mine, and it's basically Microsoft's answer to the MacBook Air. Best of all, the SSD and battery can be replaced, which makes it better than the Air! I expect to keep this computer for many years to come. I'd still like to find out how a native Windows experience compares between the 10-core Snapdragon X Plus and the 10-core M4. Maybe we'll get native Windows support one of these days. If not, my Mac mini will either become more e-waste, or a Linux machine powered by Asahi by 2034. If OCLP survives the death of Intel, maybe I'll be running unofficial macOS releases.

I'm not getting into the whole argument of windows vs mac again, it's pointless as people obviously have their views and are either unable or unwilling to understand that everyone's needs are different and each platform has both flaws and benefits.

I'd love to see bootcamp return so we have the option. VMs are slightly messy, in my experience, and don't beat a full blown environment.

I think microsoft would have to have a compelling reason to put effort into making it work, however. The official backing of parallels sugests that they see that as the solution, though I'd far rather give my money direct to microsoft rather than have to use a 3rd party product.

A 3rd party product not so accessible because of qt. I've tried vmware and it's far better than utm and I think we can all agree at least on that in terms of windows vm on mac?

VMWare does indeed seem to be better than UTM. One issue that would have me pulling my hair out, if I hadn't already shaved it, is that no matter how hard I try, I can't get the driver for the Focus 40 to install on my VM. I have the vm set to automatically connect the Focus to that, not the Mac. But I've tried running that installer a million times, and no luck. No matter what I do, it doesn't fully install. If I could get the Focus working with my VM, that would help a ton! Works with the Mac itself, but it's been a no go doing anything to get it to work with the Windows vm, which is an issue I doubt I would be having if I were able to boot straight in to Windows, without needing a VM.

The standalone Focus installer doesn't contain the driver designed specifically for ARM Windows. You need to install JAWS. I'm going to ask about this on the next FSOpenLine this Thursday. I prefer to keep the shark as far away from any of my systems as humanly possible!

Yes same here. I would greatly appreciate any update you can get. I haven't used JAWS for years, and really can't see it running well on this VM with only 4 gb ram.

There is a quicker way to do it on mac. In pages, you can go to the stile, say heading level 1, and assign a shortcut with one of the f keys. I.e, f1, f2, etc. Then you'll just have to press the f key and the heading or whichever stile you mapped will be applied.
As far as bootcamp... I've always used vms and haven't had problems, but I do have a solid machine to run both vms and mac simultaneously, I.e, 36gigs ram, 1tb storage, so that might be why I don't see problems given the specks. Although bootcamp doesn't hold any interest, never has, went straight for vms from the get go. I don't think this will happen though. Given the versatility, eas, and advantages of vms compared to bootcamp, I really don't see microsoft or apple getting an incentive to develop it. Keep in mind, bootcamp came about way back, when vms didn't exist yet but now that vms are a solution... Bootcamp, to large companies, I.e, apple and microsoft isn't worth it given that vms are a superior solution in many ways and hold many advantages. It could happen in theory but, the market for that would be quite... neesh to say the least.

I would love bootcamp back again on the newer macs especially because I've got my studio setup just the way I want it and have a lot of things plugged in to my hubs. if I wanna switch to my windows laptop I'd have to switch everything over if I wanna use with the studio rig and that's just something I'm not wanting to do thank you vary much. I would rather have two operating systems in one computer and the thing running a VM is you can't really be that much flexible with your outputs and inputs like you can when running windows natively from what I know. If they've changed this recently in VMs I'd love to hear about it. Otherwise, I'll keep my mac book pro 2015 for as long as I can.

I do see what you mean with inputs and outputs on a VM. Is it possible to tell the software, every time I connect this device, connect either to the host or to the vm, yes. Is it a pain? Why, yes, yes it is. I definitely feel like VMWare handles connected devices way better than UTM. And since we don't have bootcamp, I'm making the best of it on this mac, but yeah, would much prefer bootcamp and the use of full system resources.
If we could only get an ARM version of the Focus driver, I'd be pretty well set, and my VM would become a lot more useful. I use it to remote in to a computer used for an online radio station, and for recording programs when traveling, thus away from the studio. Not having NVDA able to pick up the Focus and thus not being able to read my show notes, in the same place I'm recording, is a bit of a pain.
With only 4 gb ram, I would never want to do a full blown broadcast from the VM, but for going in, changing up my playlist and recording segments of a show between songs, the VM should work okay. Again, would I prefer to do bootcamp and have a bit more wiggle room? You bet! But do I see that happening any time soon? Nope.