I cannot buy or recommend a Mac laptop, even though I would love to...

By Mert Ozer, 10 September, 2024

Forum
macOS and Mac Apps

Hello folks,

I just wanted to share something that really bothers me when it comes to Apple’s Mac computers. I was in the market for a new laptop after getting tired of Microsoft’s endless ads, the overrated Copilot feature, battery issues, driver problems, and so on. At the time, I was already using a Mac that my school provided for an academic year. Before buying a Mac myself, I decided to use the school’s computer for a month to see if it actually met my needs. While I was happy with certain aspects, I also discovered how poorly some things were handled—like the new VoiceOver issues with every single feature update, the difference between Google Chrome and Safari in terms of web accessibility, and Safari’s constant freezing, which almost made me stop using the computer altogether.

It feels like macOS would be perfect for me if I didn’t need to use VoiceOver, as I’m blind. I love Mac and macOS overall—the speakers, the impressive battery life, the new Apple Silicon chip, the ability to run VMs and test other operating systems like Windows, and so on. But all of that is limited by what VoiceOver can handle, and Apple has done a terrible job with it. There are too many rotor options; when I use one rotor mode to read line by line, I can't continue reading where I left off with another rotor option. It’s just too inconsistent for a quick laptop user like me. And I’m not even coming from an inexperienced user background—I can code, do productivity work, and more. But even for me, VoiceOver on a Mac comes with compromises I just can’t deal with.

Let’s say I want to use Google Docs for a new assignment. If I try it on Safari, it works terribly—keyboard shortcuts don’t function properly. But when I use Chrome, it works perfectly. So do I need to switch between browsers just to access different websites? Chrome has its own issues that Safari doesn’t, and vice versa. So, which one should I choose?

I’m applying to colleges, mostly music schools in the U.S. Many of them require me to use a Mac with Logic Pro and other software. What am I going to do when that becomes my reality? What will I do when I’m stuck on a simple task because of a frustrating VoiceOver issue?

In the end, I decided to buy an HP Spectre x360 with an i7 155h processor and 32GB of RAM. It works like a charm, and I love almost everything about it. But the battery life isn’t as good as a MacBook Air. I still keep seeing Microsoft’s annoying ads, and I don’t like how complicated it is to send messages from my laptop or transfer files to my iPhone. I’d love to be part of the Apple ecosystem since I have an iPhone and AirPods. But until Apple fixes these problems, I won’t be able to use a Mac as my daily driver.

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Comments

By Leela on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

I don't really want to use a mac. I'm not into being in one ecosystem or another. I think that works for some people, but sometimes it's not a good choice.

By Ollie on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

I agree with this though, I will also say, latest Mac OS 15 betas have made voiceover very stable in safari, touch wood. Still, it's a messy beast and not really set up for professionals, unless you are doing music editting and creation. Even then, the way voiceover navigates is mind boggling because it is having to crawl through something which is designed for mouse control first.

By Justin Harris on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

As someone who has done a lot of switching back and forth between Mac OS and Windows, I can say that both have their advantages and disadvantages. I love audio editting on the mac. I use it to do radio production, and Amadeus Pro is a joy to use. I have never had a lot of the issues with Safari that many people report. I don't doubt what they're saying for a second, just haven't experienced it nearly to the extent that a lot of folks have reported. I have to have Windows for my online radio station, as while there are programs to broadcast from a mac, I found them, and the way they all work together, to be very complicated. But all my audio editting, and most of my casual browsing is done on Mac OS. Also, I much prefer email management on the mac as opposed to anything on Windows. Thunderbird, with 3 email accounts, that have emails going back in some cases almost 10 years, becomes so bogged down it is not useable. Lots of people get SNR on the mac side, but that's what I get with Thunderbird on Windows. The Apple email client handles it without an issue.
I recently got my hands on an m1 macbook air. It's not the latest or greatest, but I'm still super happy with it.

By Mert Ozer on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

I definitely think Apple’s Mail app is much better than the alternatives on Windows. I used to rely on Microsoft’s original Mail and Calendar app before they ruined it, but now I only use the Gmail website because it offers really good keyboard shortcuts. As a musician, most Windows laptops struggle with the ASIO driver used to reduce latency. Most of them can’t take full advantage of it. But the way Mac laptops handle audio is great. The only thing that really needs improvement is VoiceOver. Quick question: am I the only one having trouble using Google Docs on Safari while it works totally fine on Google Chrome?

By Mert Ozer on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

Some time ago, at a really stressful period of my life; I was trying to install macOS Sonoma using a bootable usb. I needed to select a Wi-Fi network to proceed, so I tried. But then I discovered that, due to a bug in the latest Mac OS builds, it’s impossible to access the Wi-Fi menu within the recovery app using the keyboard. I had to use the trackpad to hover over it, and it wasn’t easy. Little things like that ruin the whole experience.

By Special K on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

I'm a Mac guy for life! I wouldn't go back to Windows if they paid me! Jaws was getting clunkier by the update, I had to switch between 3 screen readers and 2 browsers to get stuff done, and of course, audio driver conflicts! My Mac just works! Yes, if I want to use Google Docs, I have to use Chrome, and it does seem Chrome is a better browser over all, but I still like Safari! I use Pro Tools, Reaper, and Logic, and they all work beautifully! Pro Tools is inaccessible with Windows, and Logic is nonexistent. I have an M1 MacBook Pro, and an Intel iMac. I love them both.

By PaulMartz on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

I'm a heavy user of Google Docs on MacOS. A few years back, I wrote this article on how I do it. At the time, Chrome and Safari were apples and oranges, but Safari has dropped in usability to the point where Chrome is now my default browser, not just for Docs but for everything. I still use Safari for websites where I expect to use reader view.

As for that article, while AppleVis was offline, Google Drive dropped a bombshell on us with a completely revamped keyboard shortcut palette. Wow did that ever kill my productivity. I still have to open the shortcuts menu and look stuff up. So I'll have to update that article to reflect the new shortcut palette.

I don't think I'd go so far as to declare I can't recommend a MacOS platform. I'd put it differently: No matter what platform you buy, you'll run into problems. I can't switch to iOS for Docs because I frequently use it while I'm in a Zoom call and need to have my camera on, as one example. And a year or so back, I shared my thoughts about returning to Windows in a blog post, so I won't repeat them here.

By Dennis Long on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

I know people with macs and they don't report the issues people are having. have people thought about getting training to make sure there aren't tips and tricks they don't know? I have no doubt you are having the issues but it may be do to a lack of knowledge or you are thinking you are doing something correct but you aren't. This seems like a good site. I can't imagine if macs were that bad this site would exist. check it out. Maybe you can get funding for training?
https://macfortheblind.com/

By Justin Harris on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

I never used Google docs, even on Windows. When I got my first mac, during my junior year of college, I did everything in pages, and that was even before they had put in as much work to make it better with Voiceover. I've played around with Pages here and there, prepared Bible studies for church and such, but those were for my own use, so there was no concern about how they looked. So, I can't speak to any issues you may be having. What I can say, is that for me, Safari is a lot more stable than what is often reported here. Again, not doubting the claims, but can't say I have experienced them myself.

By TheBllindGuy07 on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

This is the problem. Either liek me and most here you have just so much problems, or you don't. What is true? As a developer and someone who tries a lot of weird stuff like chromevox with chromeos, all the flavors you could imagine of linux with and without desktop and orca or terminal with speakup, and of course windows... As much as I hate it, if you aren't on windows, mac is your second bet in terms of overall accessibility. If you don't use terminal and 99% of your things are online, then honestly you'd be surprised with how good chromevox is with web (I rank it just after nvda, so that gives you an idea). Google Docs is litterally incredible with chromevox and chromeos, if it's not windows with nvda and chrome.
But yes, macos is so damn good but voiceover just ruins the experience as a fully blind user who actually wants to take full advantage of their nice keyboard. I have a lot of difficulties for coding, or even latex with option left and right arrow for navigation voiceover does so much crazy things. I have just remapped commander (left option) with uiojklm,. so it's really voiceover that moves the cursor, like what orca and speakup have for example. I'll tell you my experience. Also mac voiceover and web accessibility is no way near what windows screen readers have. Say hi to safari/chrome does not respond when you go on td easyweb to see your monthly statemetn. that simple table is too much for the poor voiceover, even on sequoia (yes).
Anyways. But definitely macos sequoia does correct its sheer amount of bugs so we have at least that, especially in iwork suite.

By Mert Ozer on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

I'm delighted to hear that Pro Tools is accessible on Mac, can't wait to try when I have one in the future. I use Reaper on windows all the time, but I would like to try other tools as well. Now that you are a Chrome user, how do you navigate between lines on a website? On Safari, Apple made it possible with up/down arrows with Sonoma. But on Chrome; I still can't find a sufficient way to move through the lines other than VoiceOver rotor, with VOCommand and arrows. To be honest, I hate Jaws and at least for me, NVDA is the best option on Windows. I used Jaws as my primary screen reader until 2020; have been using NVDA for 4 years now.

By mslion on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

sorry if this changes the focus slightly,
but can someone tell me how vscode behaves on mac? I would love to switch for work but need to know if this is possible?

By TheBllindGuy07 on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

VSCode is generally good on mac. I won't say more than that as I still have a very limitted experience.

By mslion on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

thanks for the answer! are you also using vscode with braille? or more in general, how do you navigate through the editor?

By Ollie on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

Just touching on the argument that some people aren't trained on mac... Though I completely agree this could be an issue, I'd also point out that voiceover is over complicated on many levels and isn't nearly as intuitive as other apple products or even screen readers on windows. This, I feel, is a design flaw. We shouldn't have to hold down VO keys to navigate or switch between modes. It should, as they say, just work with the most basic of competents. I recall first coming to the mac from windows and was highly confused by how convoluted the screen reader was. It has improved in those 15 years... Not by much.

I'm sure there are some who find it easy to use through familiarity, but stepping back and looking at the number of keystrokes it requires to do things is usually a good indicator of design quality. I personally find it a bit mad that, in finder, I need to use two keys to launch an app.

For the sited, I'd always suggest a mac, they are great and very good value. For the blind, I'd say a great deal of the proposition is lost because voiceover is badly designed and not nearly as mature as offerings on windows. As usual, we get the worst of both worlds. Good screen readers on a bad OS, windows, or a bad screen reader on a great OS, mac.

By TheBllindGuy07 on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

This is so true. The user is left to deal with the products so difficult to use.
Just 30 minutes ago I was in class applying apa style in pages. Guess what? For a thing as simple as writing text in the header or footer, I had to sync mouse cursor with keyboard then mouse click with voiceover. Then whenever you are done with that particulare section of the header or footer voiceover seems to only see that latest section touched, left centre or right, and the other two are forgoten. This was of course noticed when I was very new to mac at 13.5, then I was... Okay, maybe there's something I am doing wrong. In Sequoia this is still there and I don't even wanna bet that it was there way before 13.5. And this is just one bug with one feature of one app of the iwork suite.
Preview with pdf is horrible with simple html lists, not to mention that the find next/previous italic text does not work while the formatting with vo t does say that text is italic, and of course with verbosity rotor text attribute set to announce voiceover will only tell the formating change when you actually interact with that text in that specific element within that list... At which point will the blind community stop selling macs to non musicians and/or make apple understand that they will no longer be tolerating this abusive relationship anymore?
As a dev I am at least happy that this gives me a huge opportunity to create another platform for bug tracking at dev and technical audience that I'm working on, more newws on that later this month hopefully. Another random bug is when cursor jumps randomly within portions of words because the trackpad is so big (as of writing this) is only one of many problems. The sad thing I'd love nothing more than be 100% happy with macos (which aI m) and voiceover there (which I am absolutely not), but apple are making this very very very hard.
Like text checker is stil not there in safari with voiceover? Or any web text field I think on any browser. They broke Monako editor on the web with voiceover on safari which was working very well around sonoma 14.0... And so on.
I saw just 2-3 bugs correction on sequoia and that is what convinced me to keep my mac, not to mention the hardware and insane battery life, otherwise I'd have sold it already and never, never look back. I still love my iphone, but mac? As long as it helps me doing what I need to do with it I am fine, but the overall experience is less than ideal. Because of all these bugs I bought a pro but am currently using it like an air because coding and text navigation and just web browsing and terminal is so horrible.

By TheBllindGuy07 on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

Without sarcasm though, remember that on ps5 it's an mvp of a screen reader, when you enter a web area you can litterally do nothing but switch window. And as far as I know Nintendo doesn't even have a screen reader at all. You can still do much more on macos than chromeos, although chromevox as a screen reader on the web is just incredible. The day (probably never but I can dream) google release chromeos flex for arm and asahi or equivalent is more mature I'll definitely be installing that to try.

By Mert Ozer on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

I just don’t get why Apple wouldn’t try to fix these issues rather than adding new features in the first place. It’s so obvious that we are having issues, especially with web navigation, viewing PDF documents, and such with VoiceOver. I hope Apple has blind software engineers who work for them, and I also hope they report all these bugs related to VoiceOver. So why wouldn’t Apple try to fix them? I feel like they value accessibility and VoiceOver. I really want to buy a Mac, but what drives me crazy even more is the fact that VoiceOver on iOS is much better when it comes to accessibility. That should be the case, but the fewer number of blind users on macOS should not mean that they don’t value VoiceOver on Mac. I wish there was a windows computer without microsoft's annoying moves, with speakers as good as a Macbook pro 14 type of ones, a laptop with an insane battery life that doesn't lost any of it's performance when unplugged, and works with an iPhone. I hope Apple will fix the Mac OS and I will buy one.

By Ollie on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 19:18

RIP bootcamp