Microsoft's 365 Cloud PC solution could work, but they will have to make it viable for individual use. I would not touch Parallels, as it seems too limiting.
macOS Sonoma 14.3 released, still with the breaking change that makes VMware Fusion unusable while VoiceOver is on.
There's an empty internal partition on my desktop, called "Windows" ...
I'll still need a portable Mac in future, I think, and I'll still need Windows in a VM, so I'd best migrate my VMs over to UTM. The options for treating Caps Lock as a regular key in the VM, and for switching grab/ungrab to Command-Option instead of Control-Option do mean it's actually quite nice to use. But it's not a substitute for Fusion or Parallels for performance, sadly, and ARM Windows simply won't be the same as using x86_64 Windows on Intel/AMD hardware. Brave new world, and all that.
Ya had me excited until this article was only mentioning running windows in parallels VM or the cloud. Sadly no solution with running this on actual mac hardware with bootcamp, which I would vary, much would love to do. Oh well. Guess I'll still be sticking to my intel based mac. Unless there is a solution that I don't know about. This is actually the main reason of why, I ain't going with apple's new chips. Yes I know VMs are great however, me having my screen reader going through one device and my music production software going through my studio rig and what not is making the switch, vary not likely. Plus, if I'm doing something for an online audience, yeah, I don't like having my NVDA or whatever I'm using, blast through people's ear holes. No thanks. Great find none the less but this ain't for me.
I thought Microsoft had endorsed this a while ago or did I just imagine that?
I presume it's still not accessible with VoiceOver? I'd like to give it a try, but having to use VOCR to get there puts me off. I'm not sure I want to pay for inaccessible software.
Yep agree with what's been said above. I honestly don't think this is anything new here at all. I could and would love to be totally wrong on this though. Meh, I'll be passing on this for sure.
UTM isn't the easiest tool to use because it's a frontend to QEMU so you need to configure it to use the graphical display and not show you the terminal interface. I am not aware of a guide, though it wouldn't be too hard to rustle something up. At the moment I don't have a dedicated Apple Silicon Mac to run Windows on and I'm saving up for my notebook purchase; I'm using UTM exclusively on my server Mini in Apple's Virtualization mode and on my Intel 2020 iMac chiefly to run Linux. The procedure should be relatively similar though, except for the part that you download the ARM ISO which is a somewhat fiddly affair requiring you do some Terminal things to build the ISO image because M$ don't have one available for download. It really isn't as nice as using VMware or Parallels though, sadly.
As for ripping your music, absolutely this is still supported by the Music app. Check the CDs and DVDs settings in macOS, and the Settings window in Music. It's all there, still. I might actually be able to go back to using Music.app for managing my library again, with the aid of some AppleScripts to add missing track numbers that I'd accidentally destroyed.
Edit: Oops, see you said Movies, not Music. Sorry about that! Well, which tool did you have in mind? There might be Mac alternatives.
While I admittedly haven't used it in a while, I'm a bit surprised that Microsoft didn't recognize VMWare Fusion as a solution since unless they've pulled support for it, their latest version supports the ARM edition of Windows. I use Parallels which is doable with VOCR and a lot of patience, but really wish it had a more accessible interface if only because I hate supporting something that is so blatantly inaccessible. The Windows 365 streaming option is an interesting one, I know it's not consumer-friendly right now, but makes me wonder where we might be at in a little while. If lag could be reduced, maybe we could use our phones or iPads as terminals for something far more powerful in the cloud? I know that presumes a constant internet connection and so wouldn't be an ideal for everyone, but I find the possibilities really fascinating.
I agree, Parallels can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned. It's inaccessible trash, and the developers don't seem to care!
I thought the VMware Fusion crashing problem was an issue with the program, but maybe not? I don't use macOS anymore, but I tried helping a friend set up a VM in Fusion on an M1 MacBook Pro, and it just crashed.
For those who want to download a Windows ISO, check out Crystal Fetch. It seems very easy to use from my brief play on my friend's Mac using RIM. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/crystalfetch-iso-downloader/id6454431289?mt=12
Crystal Fetch seems very nice! I wasn't aware of the UTM affiliation, but that's definitely progress since I last did this. Obviously for x86_64 you can still just go to a web page at Microsoft, the Mac and Linux even get special treatment and direct download links, this is most important for ARM. I'm just surprised the app made it to the Mac App Store.
Concerning Fusion crashing, this was a breaking change introduced by Sonoma; there's a security check in AppKit that means the setuid root helper which manages the VM will be abruptly terminated and it's presumably tickled by the presence of VoiceOver, but the change was made by Apple. I don't know whose responsibility it is to fix it, but Apple were definitely the ones who broke it.
I'm still using my 2011 Mac book pro. It can't upgrade past high sierra on the mac side, and it is running Windows 10, but it meets my needs perfectly. I still use windows for pretty much everything except email, and I especially use windows for gaming. Not sure what I'm going to do when I inevitably have to replace this computer. Hoping that maybe Bootcamp will come back some day, but it doesn't seem all that likely. I guess that if worst comes to worst, I'll try to buy the newest intel mac I can find.
Very doable. However, don't bother wasting money on a MacBook. You will want a dedicated graphics chip, and will spend entirely too much cash for entirely too little return on your investment.
Instead, get yourself a decent iMac, Mac Pro, etc. Personally, I would suggest iMac. Find a refurb iMac pre 2020 with decent ram (16gb minimum) and a good GPU and you can game until your eyes bleed.
Have you tried thunderbird for email? It's a bit extra with the amount of times you have to press tab to get to the email table but it's doable, once you're there you can just arrow up and down through your emails and press enter to open one.
It is. It really is. God was smiling sardonically upon whichever hapless Apple executive decided to make the best of their Intel transition. This is very evident on the T2 Macs since practically the only non-Apple and non-Intel drivers are for the GPU, so the experience is exceptional, with at most the GPU driver applet. That and Apple's update process is 100% accessible, and one cannot help but realise just how valuable controlling the entire widget is, from a user-experience perspective, and wishing fervently that other OEMs would take the hint, and do likewise. But alas ...
As to why, well if it's not already obvious, maybe this isn't the right path for you. But as of right now my 2020 iMac is running Sonoma and Windows 11 (hacked up to bypass all the stupid checks). I can boot either one, make myself at home in either, etc. Maybe it means that in future I end up with two machines, but it will be the Mac that's portable, not the Windows machine. And that's how it should be, because Apple Silicon is all about power-per-watt, not overall performance. We shall see.
Apple hardware is superior. Always. Windows runs better on Apple hardware than even Apple software.
Unlike other computer manufacturers out there, Apple does not skimp on materials.
All this has been documented. Research it.
Also, I never said the Mac Mini was inferior, I would have thought that was obvious when I said Mac Pro, iMac, or 'etc'. Mac Mini does have one neat feature, if I recall, it can run without a display.
Anyways, you asked so we gave you informations. If you want a PC to run Windows, then 'do you'.
Just don't laugh at the rest of us who enjoy the benefits of dual booting machines.
Of course, there is quality hardware out there, if you look hard enough, or most probably, resort to a PC builder to build for you. You will need to know what goes in there, tackle inaccessible firmware and deshittify the software (use a tool like Snappy Driver Installer Origin to minimise the bloat of installed drivers if you start clean, but you'll probably have to put up with motherboard applets all the same). Yes, it's possible, absolutely. It's just a question of slaying enough demons to get it the way you want. And obviously, if it's just going to be Windows, that would be the economical and sensible thing to do long-term.
The Mac Mini isn't a bad machine, but it's more like a portable computer in specs than a desktop. Lovely form factor; I use mine as Linux NAS/routers or for running older operating systems. So Iris graphics, rather than an AMD Radeon found in iMacs. Use a site or app like MacTracker to find all the details for the model you will get, if you go down that path. I still say the experience is superior out of the box, but maybe if you can't get the very latest model of the Intel Mac you want, it's time to take the long walk to contemporary Windows hardware if you'll specifically need a SFF workhorse. The Intel NUC is basically dead, but other vendors do make them, like Gigabyte's Brix. Make sure you'll get the connectivity you need; Thunderbolt isn't as cherished in Windows hardware, though USB4 will change it for the better.
In stead of Windows 365 if you have a good connection you can use Shadow PC, require montly subscription, but offer a PC with dedicated GPU. You can install NVDA, JAWS, ecc.
It's accessible to launch with VoiceOver, for a best experience you can deactivate mission control shortcuts. https://shadow.tech/
PS: for my experience in Apple Silicon is better the intel app has more stability, but you can try.
Highly suggest you avoid shadow. It's very expensive and, when I discovered the apps are far from accessible on mac with apple silicon, they refused a refund and were quite rude about it. Look elsewhere.
I've always used vms, tbh. Never thought bootcamp worth it, ,^ust use vms, best of both worlds. I really don't get why some swear by bootcamp but, to each their own I supppose, I just don't quite get it. When you can use vms, which, imho, are superior to bootcamping... Why go the hardest option? Just my thoughts.
I'm genuinely curious as to how you arrive at this conclusion? With a vm, you only get partial memory, a few cores, as opposed to the full dedicated resources the device has to offer.
I ran Windows in a VM via UTM for a bit when I had my M1 air, but wasn't happy with it at all. Random freezes, plus some stuff with the keyboard and getting Caps lock as NVDA key, it was all just way more trouble than it was worth. Then there's always the fun times where you have Voiceover off to not have any key commands conflict, and you somehow accidentally navigate away from the program the VM is running in, and then you have to try and figure out why in the world Windows is no longer doing what you expect or even responding.
When I had a macbook, I much preferred Bootcamp, but then I spent so much more time in Windows that having a Mac really wasn't worth it. While I miss the metal build, I'm otherwise perfectly happy with my Dell Latitude from 2020. And now that I switched full time to Windows and switched to an Android phone, I don't ever see myself going back.
While I have not switched to Android just yet, I can say that running Windows via Bootcamp is far more stable than running a Virtual Machine. Aside from what was mentioned above, you also have to worry about over stressing your processor and potentially cooking your Macs motherboard. With Bootcamp, you get all the hardware benefit of Apple, and all of the software benefit of Microsoft, and nothing conflicting, as only one Operating System is running at one time. This means you are ever only processing resources and commands for one OS, and said OS has access to the entire list of resources. Meaning full allocated RAM, full virtual ram, full multimedia rendering, etc, etc.
Virtual Machines have their uses, trust me. I am using one now for school, but it only runs for a few hours a day, a few days out of the week. 🤷
I use to think that VMs was king and did everything I needed to but, once I switch to bootcamp, I never looked back. No more hogging resources for anything, no more lag and VO conflicting with anything, and most importantly, at least in my case, independent input and output routing! Don't think you can do that with a VM like that. Oh and I don't have to worry about setting up an insert or capslock key when you don't have one and having to give up a key for something else to be used as that. Totally annoying! Yeah I can do a lot more on bootcamp than on a VM by far. I'm also a gamer so I need as much resources as I can have. Until they have bootcamp support for the m chips, I won't be buying any of apples newer macs. Sorry.
When Apple used Intel processors, it truly was like having two computers in one. I have a 2011 macbook pro, and it's running mac os High sierra and windows 10 beautifully. True, neither side can be upgraded, but the machine is still working perfectly and meets all my needs. Unless a miracle happens and we're someday able to use bootcamp on the new apple processors, I will most definitely be trying to track down the most recent intel-based mac I can find when this little computer inevitably needs to be replaced. I've got a 2 TB solid state drive in this computer now, so am hopeful that perhaps I will be able to get a few more years of service out of it. Yes, Mac hardware is more expensive, but you get what you pay for, and especially if you're able to apply the 2 computers in 1 logic, it's worth the money, at least to me. I had a desktop computer that only lasted for about 6 years, yet this little macbook is still going strong. When I first got this computer, someone tried to help me set up a VM for windows, but it wasn't even remotely useable. Jaws kept losing authorization, and the lag was horendous. With bootcamp, though, everything is perfect, and this is by far the very best computer I've ever owned..
Lucky you're able to have the ability to upgrade hardware. My macbook pro 2015 I can't upgrade the ram or HD from what I'm told. I could be wrong and if I am, then please let it be so.
I'm not sure if apple changed stuff between 2011 and 2015, but I was able to get a new HD and more ram installed in this machine with only minimal issues. It couldn't hurt to maybe try to do a bit of research to find out if perhaps your computer can be upgraded after all.
Up until March of this year, I was running an old 2013 MBP with a Bootcamp partition running Windows 10 Student Edition. I ended up using Windows more than anything else once the infamous SNR became a thing. To reiterate what has already been said, Intel-based Macs were indeed the best 2-in-1 computer money could buy, because unlike with a virtual machine you will get the full range of resource allocation which will ensure Windows will run smooth as silk.
Prior to the HP I am currently on, I would have told you my MBP was the best Windows PC I ever owned. . . 🙂
These days, I generally follow the "one operating system per machine" strategy. I've used a virtual machine previously, but not for desktop tasks - it was a purely command line Linux VM. I would use it again if the desire arose.
However, I prefer to avoid the additional complexities and performance issues associated with virtualization, and dual-boot configurations are annoying, as you have to reboot the system whenever you want to make a switch.
Fortunately, there's a Mac version of all the applications I want to use, so I don't feel the temptation to run Windows on the Mac. If you do need a Windows-only application, then virtualization is an option - probably best if you only want it occasionally.
If you want to run Windows most of the time, then your needs are probably best served by a Windows machine.
I primarily use windows, but most definitely prefer mac os for email. I'm hoping that whenever I am forced to retire this computer, I'll be able to find a whatever the newest intel based mac is on ebay or something. I don't really have the space to have two different computer set-ups. Hopefully, it's not a scenario I'll have to figure out any time soon.
Sorry, but I don't understand why you find Shadow inaccessible. I had a subscription from February to May and it always worked. I advised to use the Intel app because it is more stable and does not freeze in streaming. The arm version is the same, but with Jaws on the cloud computer it often crashed, with the Intel app it worked very well. With Nvda it also ran well the native Apple Silicon app, I don't know why this behavior.
Expensive, yes, it is, but I think Windows 365 consumer subscription will be too.
the app was a mess and far from easy to navigate. I'm not sure what version I was using, probably the arm one as on apple silicon.
There was of course th option of using something like jump desktop, but you really don't get much bang for your buck unless you start scaling up the subscriptions. Cost wise its better to save for a year and build a computer and run it with something like the windows app remotely.
The issue I took with shadow was that I reported bugs, the problems with layout, poorly labelled buttons on both mac and IOS and they did nothing about it. It made it difficult to use and they refused a refund.
They provide a bad service, at a bad cost and are bad people. Buy your own PC rather than sticking money in their pocket and getting a sub standard product. You can always sell a PC later on too. With a subscription it's sunk costs.
First to Jonathan: so I read that you have been able to split hide NVDA or JAWS voices from your audience while sharing your screen?did I got it right? if yes, please tell me how to do that on windows.
Second, to Justin, well nice to see you now are on my side using windows; you might remember my experience with the only macbook I had owned was a mess, and as you say, even when I miss the metal touch and some wonders like the calendar and mail native apps, I now love my surfase laptop 4 which is the most similar hardware I could have compared to a Macbook.
I remember even with bootcamp I experimented some issues with thesound card, my 2019 macbook air never sounded as good on windows as it did in macOS.
Hope someday I could return to a macbook as glad as I always come to an iPhone.
I know you were asking specific people, but I thought I would offer some insight. I hope you will not mind.
With regards to hiding screen reader output during a screen share, at least in NVDA (as I am not familiar with JAWS), you can setup where screen reader output goes from within the NVDA app. If you have it set, for example, to a bluetooth, or otherwise a headset, that will not transfer over with a screen share.
Comments
Cloud PC
Microsoft's 365 Cloud PC solution could work, but they will have to make it viable for individual use. I would not touch Parallels, as it seems too limiting.
Good article and good find. 👍🏼
Meanwhile ...
macOS Sonoma 14.3 released, still with the breaking change that makes VMware Fusion unusable while VoiceOver is on.
There's an empty internal partition on my desktop, called "Windows" ...
I'll still need a portable Mac in future, I think, and I'll still need Windows in a VM, so I'd best migrate my VMs over to UTM. The options for treating Caps Lock as a regular key in the VM, and for switching grab/ungrab to Command-Option instead of Control-Option do mean it's actually quite nice to use. But it's not a substitute for Fusion or Parallels for performance, sadly, and ARM Windows simply won't be the same as using x86_64 Windows on Intel/AMD hardware. Brave new world, and all that.
Welp... Don't come at me but these are my thoughts.
Ya had me excited until this article was only mentioning running windows in parallels VM or the cloud. Sadly no solution with running this on actual mac hardware with bootcamp, which I would vary, much would love to do. Oh well. Guess I'll still be sticking to my intel based mac. Unless there is a solution that I don't know about. This is actually the main reason of why, I ain't going with apple's new chips. Yes I know VMs are great however, me having my screen reader going through one device and my music production software going through my studio rig and what not is making the switch, vary not likely. Plus, if I'm doing something for an online audience, yeah, I don't like having my NVDA or whatever I'm using, blast through people's ear holes. No thanks. Great find none the less but this ain't for me.
Parallels
I thought Microsoft had endorsed this a while ago or did I just imagine that?
I presume it's still not accessible with VoiceOver? I'd like to give it a try, but having to use VOCR to get there puts me off. I'm not sure I want to pay for inaccessible software.
Re: Parallels
Yep agree with what's been said above. I honestly don't think this is anything new here at all. I could and would love to be totally wrong on this though. Meh, I'll be passing on this for sure.
@Oliver
UTM isn't the easiest tool to use because it's a frontend to QEMU so you need to configure it to use the graphical display and not show you the terminal interface. I am not aware of a guide, though it wouldn't be too hard to rustle something up. At the moment I don't have a dedicated Apple Silicon Mac to run Windows on and I'm saving up for my notebook purchase; I'm using UTM exclusively on my server Mini in Apple's Virtualization mode and on my Intel 2020 iMac chiefly to run Linux. The procedure should be relatively similar though, except for the part that you download the ARM ISO which is a somewhat fiddly affair requiring you do some Terminal things to build the ISO image because M$ don't have one available for download. It really isn't as nice as using VMware or Parallels though, sadly.
As for ripping your music, absolutely this is still supported by the Music app. Check the CDs and DVDs settings in macOS, and the Settings window in Music. It's all there, still. I might actually be able to go back to using Music.app for managing my library again, with the aid of some AppleScripts to add missing track numbers that I'd accidentally destroyed.
Edit: Oops, see you said Movies, not Music. Sorry about that! Well, which tool did you have in mind? There might be Mac alternatives.
Surprised VMWare Fusion didn't make the list
While I admittedly haven't used it in a while, I'm a bit surprised that Microsoft didn't recognize VMWare Fusion as a solution since unless they've pulled support for it, their latest version supports the ARM edition of Windows. I use Parallels which is doable with VOCR and a lot of patience, but really wish it had a more accessible interface if only because I hate supporting something that is so blatantly inaccessible. The Windows 365 streaming option is an interesting one, I know it's not consumer-friendly right now, but makes me wonder where we might be at in a little while. If lag could be reduced, maybe we could use our phones or iPads as terminals for something far more powerful in the cloud? I know that presumes a constant internet connection and so wouldn't be an ideal for everyone, but I find the possibilities really fascinating.
Crystal Fetch
I agree, Parallels can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned. It's inaccessible trash, and the developers don't seem to care!
I thought the VMware Fusion crashing problem was an issue with the program, but maybe not? I don't use macOS anymore, but I tried helping a friend set up a VM in Fusion on an M1 MacBook Pro, and it just crashed.
For those who want to download a Windows ISO, check out Crystal Fetch. It seems very easy to use from my brief play on my friend's Mac using RIM.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/crystalfetch-iso-downloader/id6454431289?mt=12
Crystal Fetch, Fusion
Crystal Fetch seems very nice! I wasn't aware of the UTM affiliation, but that's definitely progress since I last did this. Obviously for x86_64 you can still just go to a web page at Microsoft, the Mac and Linux even get special treatment and direct download links, this is most important for ARM. I'm just surprised the app made it to the Mac App Store.
Concerning Fusion crashing, this was a breaking change introduced by Sonoma; there's a security check in AppKit that means the setuid root helper which manages the VM will be abruptly terminated and it's presumably tickled by the presence of VoiceOver, but the change was made by Apple. I don't know whose responsibility it is to fix it, but Apple were definitely the ones who broke it.
Agree with Oliver
I'm still using my 2011 Mac book pro. It can't upgrade past high sierra on the mac side, and it is running Windows 10, but it meets my needs perfectly. I still use windows for pretty much everything except email, and I especially use windows for gaming. Not sure what I'm going to do when I inevitably have to replace this computer. Hoping that maybe Bootcamp will come back some day, but it doesn't seem all that likely. I guess that if worst comes to worst, I'll try to buy the newest intel mac I can find.
Gaming on Intel Macs
Very doable. However, don't bother wasting money on a MacBook. You will want a dedicated graphics chip, and will spend entirely too much cash for entirely too little return on your investment.
Instead, get yourself a decent iMac, Mac Pro, etc. Personally, I would suggest iMac. Find a refurb iMac pre 2020 with decent ram (16gb minimum) and a good GPU and you can game until your eyes bleed.
Also, Windows via Bootcamp is f**king fabulous.
True story.
The following link is just an example of what you can get with a mid-range iMac:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/155964972464?hash=item24503c9db0%3Ag%3A6IoAAOSwS8xloDTS&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4MSjVowWzDdrO0HUs30qhMobXmrPEqiEEK6TCLWumrD4Zq1f3oOiemi9Q%2FAARg5SvTTjW1E41XWfOA0Ng9c64F0gWTAa8CqlAel0%2BRpGZFCvA6lvzVGoRYPsM%2BB9UUm1ii4QVeSbAu5EkVqEnzP3nQqqSLUdSbDO02Q4sGjJmT853w35%2FYTFVJSyixswJcFwiZTAHVoxe2fIRBqyMMeduVqREof0K63dmpg5YM54aoE63OiqZFqowbf2UFATCZTGvkQPzzCpC6UpVjQBDvZxZbCjMIUPRFAozPNs3qJzJG8I%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8aB-sSnYw&LH_ItemCondition=2010%7C2020
@Missy Hoppe
Have you tried thunderbird for email? It's a bit extra with the amount of times you have to press tab to get to the email table but it's doable, once you're there you can just arrow up and down through your emails and press enter to open one.
Re: What sort of thing can one…
According to this article, you most certainly can.
. . . but hey, you do you.
Re: Also, Windows via Bootcamp is f**king fabulous.
It is. It really is. God was smiling sardonically upon whichever hapless Apple executive decided to make the best of their Intel transition. This is very evident on the T2 Macs since practically the only non-Apple and non-Intel drivers are for the GPU, so the experience is exceptional, with at most the GPU driver applet. That and Apple's update process is 100% accessible, and one cannot help but realise just how valuable controlling the entire widget is, from a user-experience perspective, and wishing fervently that other OEMs would take the hint, and do likewise. But alas ...
As to why, well if it's not already obvious, maybe this isn't the right path for you. But as of right now my 2020 iMac is running Sonoma and Windows 11 (hacked up to bypass all the stupid checks). I can boot either one, make myself at home in either, etc. Maybe it means that in future I end up with two machines, but it will be the Mac that's portable, not the Windows machine. And that's how it should be, because Apple Silicon is all about power-per-watt, not overall performance. We shall see.
Re: Maybe I should get me an… (and) Re: If I'm just running wind
Apple hardware is superior. Always. Windows runs better on Apple hardware than even Apple software.
Unlike other computer manufacturers out there, Apple does not skimp on materials.
All this has been documented. Research it.
Also, I never said the Mac Mini was inferior, I would have thought that was obvious when I said Mac Pro, iMac, or 'etc'. Mac Mini does have one neat feature, if I recall, it can run without a display.
Anyways, you asked so we gave you informations. If you want a PC to run Windows, then 'do you'.
Just don't laugh at the rest of us who enjoy the benefits of dual booting machines.
Some of us are cheeky geeky like that. 😏
It is not seamless
Thanks for the news, however this is not seamless at all!
Windows, Mac Mini
Of course, there is quality hardware out there, if you look hard enough, or most probably, resort to a PC builder to build for you. You will need to know what goes in there, tackle inaccessible firmware and deshittify the software (use a tool like Snappy Driver Installer Origin to minimise the bloat of installed drivers if you start clean, but you'll probably have to put up with motherboard applets all the same). Yes, it's possible, absolutely. It's just a question of slaying enough demons to get it the way you want. And obviously, if it's just going to be Windows, that would be the economical and sensible thing to do long-term.
The Mac Mini isn't a bad machine, but it's more like a portable computer in specs than a desktop. Lovely form factor; I use mine as Linux NAS/routers or for running older operating systems. So Iris graphics, rather than an AMD Radeon found in iMacs. Use a site or app like MacTracker to find all the details for the model you will get, if you go down that path. I still say the experience is superior out of the box, but maybe if you can't get the very latest model of the Intel Mac you want, it's time to take the long walk to contemporary Windows hardware if you'll specifically need a SFF workhorse. The Intel NUC is basically dead, but other vendors do make them, like Gigabyte's Brix. Make sure you'll get the connectivity you need; Thunderbolt isn't as cherished in Windows hardware, though USB4 will change it for the better.
Good luck.
In stead of Windows 365 you can use Shadow PC
In stead of Windows 365 if you have a good connection you can use Shadow PC, require montly subscription, but offer a PC with dedicated GPU. You can install NVDA, JAWS, ecc.
It's accessible to launch with VoiceOver, for a best experience you can deactivate mission control shortcuts.
https://shadow.tech/
PS: for my experience in Apple Silicon is better the intel app has more stability, but you can try.
Highly suggest you avoid…
Highly suggest you avoid shadow. It's very expensive and, when I discovered the apps are far from accessible on mac with apple silicon, they refused a refund and were quite rude about it. Look elsewhere.
One day....
One day somebody will figure out how to dual boot an M-series Mac.
One day.
Until then, I will stick with my HP for Windows 11. 🤷
I hoonestly don't get the, bootcamping, thing
I've always used vms, tbh. Never thought bootcamp worth it, ,^ust use vms, best of both worlds. I really don't get why some swear by bootcamp but, to each their own I supppose, I just don't quite get it. When you can use vms, which, imho, are superior to bootcamping... Why go the hardest option? Just my thoughts.
How is a VM ever superior to Bootcamp?
I'm genuinely curious as to how you arrive at this conclusion? With a vm, you only get partial memory, a few cores, as opposed to the full dedicated resources the device has to offer.
I ran Windows in a VM via UTM for a bit when I had my M1 air, but wasn't happy with it at all. Random freezes, plus some stuff with the keyboard and getting Caps lock as NVDA key, it was all just way more trouble than it was worth. Then there's always the fun times where you have Voiceover off to not have any key commands conflict, and you somehow accidentally navigate away from the program the VM is running in, and then you have to try and figure out why in the world Windows is no longer doing what you expect or even responding.
When I had a macbook, I much preferred Bootcamp, but then I spent so much more time in Windows that having a Mac really wasn't worth it. While I miss the metal build, I'm otherwise perfectly happy with my Dell Latitude from 2020. And now that I switched full time to Windows and switched to an Android phone, I don't ever see myself going back.
Stability
While I have not switched to Android just yet, I can say that running Windows via Bootcamp is far more stable than running a Virtual Machine. Aside from what was mentioned above, you also have to worry about over stressing your processor and potentially cooking your Macs motherboard. With Bootcamp, you get all the hardware benefit of Apple, and all of the software benefit of Microsoft, and nothing conflicting, as only one Operating System is running at one time. This means you are ever only processing resources and commands for one OS, and said OS has access to the entire list of resources. Meaning full allocated RAM, full virtual ram, full multimedia rendering, etc, etc.
Virtual Machines have their uses, trust me. I am using one now for school, but it only runs for a few hours a day, a few days out of the week. 🤷
I use to think that VMs was…
I use to think that VMs was king and did everything I needed to but, once I switch to bootcamp, I never looked back. No more hogging resources for anything, no more lag and VO conflicting with anything, and most importantly, at least in my case, independent input and output routing! Don't think you can do that with a VM like that. Oh and I don't have to worry about setting up an insert or capslock key when you don't have one and having to give up a key for something else to be used as that. Totally annoying! Yeah I can do a lot more on bootcamp than on a VM by far. I'm also a gamer so I need as much resources as I can have. Until they have bootcamp support for the m chips, I won't be buying any of apples newer macs. Sorry.
Not any more unless you…
Not any more unless you wanna run in a VM, which I wouldn't recommend.
two machines in one
When Apple used Intel processors, it truly was like having two computers in one. I have a 2011 macbook pro, and it's running mac os High sierra and windows 10 beautifully. True, neither side can be upgraded, but the machine is still working perfectly and meets all my needs. Unless a miracle happens and we're someday able to use bootcamp on the new apple processors, I will most definitely be trying to track down the most recent intel-based mac I can find when this little computer inevitably needs to be replaced. I've got a 2 TB solid state drive in this computer now, so am hopeful that perhaps I will be able to get a few more years of service out of it. Yes, Mac hardware is more expensive, but you get what you pay for, and especially if you're able to apply the 2 computers in 1 logic, it's worth the money, at least to me. I had a desktop computer that only lasted for about 6 years, yet this little macbook is still going strong. When I first got this computer, someone tried to help me set up a VM for windows, but it wasn't even remotely useable. Jaws kept losing authorization, and the lag was horendous. With bootcamp, though, everything is perfect, and this is by far the very best computer I've ever owned..
Re: two machines in one
Lucky you're able to have the ability to upgrade hardware. My macbook pro 2015 I can't upgrade the ram or HD from what I'm told. I could be wrong and if I am, then please let it be so.
no isssues with upgrades here
I'm not sure if apple changed stuff between 2011 and 2015, but I was able to get a new HD and more ram installed in this machine with only minimal issues. It couldn't hurt to maybe try to do a bit of research to find out if perhaps your computer can be upgraded after all.
2015 MB Pro
I had one of those and it was a great machine, and yes can be upgraded. It's actually the last one that can.
Previously...
Up until March of this year, I was running an old 2013 MBP with a Bootcamp partition running Windows 10 Student Edition. I ended up using Windows more than anything else once the infamous SNR became a thing. To reiterate what has already been said, Intel-based Macs were indeed the best 2-in-1 computer money could buy, because unlike with a virtual machine you will get the full range of resource allocation which will ensure Windows will run smooth as silk.
Prior to the HP I am currently on, I would have told you my MBP was the best Windows PC I ever owned. . . 🙂
The one operating system per machine strategy
These days, I generally follow the "one operating system per machine" strategy. I've used a virtual machine previously, but not for desktop tasks - it was a purely command line Linux VM. I would use it again if the desire arose.
However, I prefer to avoid the additional complexities and performance issues associated with virtualization, and dual-boot configurations are annoying, as you have to reboot the system whenever you want to make a switch.
Fortunately, there's a Mac version of all the applications I want to use, so I don't feel the temptation to run Windows on the Mac. If you do need a Windows-only application, then virtualization is an option - probably best if you only want it occasionally.
If you want to run Windows most of the time, then your needs are probably best served by a Windows machine.
can't justify owning two computers
I primarily use windows, but most definitely prefer mac os for email. I'm hoping that whenever I am forced to retire this computer, I'll be able to find a whatever the newest intel based mac is on ebay or something. I don't really have the space to have two different computer set-ups. Hopefully, it's not a scenario I'll have to figure out any time soon.
Shadow app is accessible
Sorry, but I don't understand why you find Shadow inaccessible. I had a subscription from February to May and it always worked. I advised to use the Intel app because it is more stable and does not freeze in streaming. The arm version is the same, but with Jaws on the cloud computer it often crashed, with the Intel app it worked very well. With Nvda it also ran well the native Apple Silicon app, I don't know why this behavior.
Expensive, yes, it is, but I think Windows 365 consumer subscription will be too.
the app was a mess and far…
the app was a mess and far from easy to navigate. I'm not sure what version I was using, probably the arm one as on apple silicon.
There was of course th option of using something like jump desktop, but you really don't get much bang for your buck unless you start scaling up the subscriptions. Cost wise its better to save for a year and build a computer and run it with something like the windows app remotely.
The issue I took with shadow was that I reported bugs, the problems with layout, poorly labelled buttons on both mac and IOS and they did nothing about it. It made it difficult to use and they refused a refund.
They provide a bad service, at a bad cost and are bad people. Buy your own PC rather than sticking money in their pocket and getting a sub standard product. You can always sell a PC later on too. With a subscription it's sunk costs.
To Jonathan Candler and Justin Harris
First to Jonathan: so I read that you have been able to split hide NVDA or JAWS voices from your audience while sharing your screen?did I got it right? if yes, please tell me how to do that on windows.
Second, to Justin, well nice to see you now are on my side using windows; you might remember my experience with the only macbook I had owned was a mess, and as you say, even when I miss the metal touch and some wonders like the calendar and mail native apps, I now love my surfase laptop 4 which is the most similar hardware I could have compared to a Macbook.
I remember even with bootcamp I experimented some issues with thesound card, my 2019 macbook air never sounded as good on windows as it did in macOS.
Hope someday I could return to a macbook as glad as I always come to an iPhone.
@Karina
Hi there,
I know you were asking specific people, but I thought I would offer some insight. I hope you will not mind.
With regards to hiding screen reader output during a screen share, at least in NVDA (as I am not familiar with JAWS), you can setup where screen reader output goes from within the NVDA app. If you have it set, for example, to a bluetooth, or otherwise a headset, that will not transfer over with a screen share.
HTH.