I doubt this will make me popular, but I have to say, I was playing around in both Safari and Firefox today. The experience, while doable, is terrible.
Web pages seem to load pretty slowly. Heading navigation works intermittently. This is because, apparently, maintaining placement on a page is a thing that doesn't exist. I tried both just hitting a link and then going back, and opening a link in a new tab and then closing the tab.
This is on the latest iOS update, 17.3 or whatever it is, and an iPhone XR. I'm just curious, would a newer phone make this any better? Not that I'll run out and buy one just because of this, but I was really expecting a much more usable experience. I don't know if there's anything I can add as an extension, (I prefer Firefox in case there is something), or some VO setting I can change, but I can't imagine browsing on a regular basis, if this is how things are going to work.
Comments
Ads
Hello,
your Web browsing will be significantly better if you use an Adblocker.
Due to advertisements on pages, VoiceOver loses focus, and that's why you have all these issues. I must say that for a long time I've wondered why I find Web browsing on iOS pretty good while most others hate it, and this is the final conclusion.
Get AdGuard for iOS which is free and install it as a content blocker in Safari, then give it another try.
On my side, headings navigation was never buggy, for instance.
In regards to Safari VS Firefox VS any other browser, it makes no difference for Web browsing.
Browsers on iOS aren't allowed to use any custom engine other than the default WebKit, in other words, each browser uses the same engine as Safari. The only benefit to installing Firefox or Chrome or something else is to sinchronize your browsing data with another device.
This is just how it is.
Web browsing was once an absolute pleasure but sadly those days are long gone thanks to Apples negligence and the web moving on. Pop ups that canāt be dismissed, unannounced cookie warnings messing up navigation, navigating by headings, form controls or anything else not working properly, focus jumping all over the place, web elements that canāt be interacted with at all by voiceover, forms that are impossible to fill in with voiceover, forms that are confusing because elements arenāt labeled correctly I could go on and on. Itās got to the point that this is a genuinely disabling problem. The tools that are part of every day life being unusable by blind people excludes us from the world in a very meaningful way. For example. I donāt choose to browse the web anymore if I can help it, its just too frustrating and Leeds to so much helplessness and despair. I only buy from Amazon because their interface is the most usable even though it has significant problems too. Itās an absolute S**t show and there should be legislation that protects users from tech giants neglecting features leading to exclusion from parts of the world. Iāve tried writing calm and constructive letters to them and so have others but it never does any good. Apple have the power to fix this. Itās their ecosystem we bought into and its Apple who have dropped the ball.
Working Fine On My End
Hi. I just tried Safari this morning on my iPhone 14, and it worked great. I have all latest updates to the software. Then again, I don't believe I've ever used iOS to browse any sites that have ads. Safari on my iPhone 7 worked well too. I just use the native pop-up blocker, the one that comes pre-installed on the iPhone. The reason for using Safari on my iPhone this morning was to look for an app here on AppleVis. At first I couldn't do much in the way of clicking links, because I think Reader was on for all websites. But I fixed that and was eventually able to purchase the app I wanted. Regarding the app in question, it seems to be working as advertised. I've never used this app until today, but I like it.
Couple of factors here!
Well, I am not going to claim browsing on iOS with Voiceover is great, but there are a couple of things you can do to make it better. First, keep in mind you are using a phone which is over five years old. In my experience, performing activities like browsing with newer hardware definitely makes the experience more snappy. If you have a friend or family member with a newer phone, you may want to borrow it, switch on Voiceover and give it a try. I think you will notice a difference. Also, in my opinion, browsing with Chrome on iOS is a lot better than Safari. I have not tried Firefox lately, but I have been extremely frustrated with Safari. Moving to Chrome helped things immensely as it was a lot quicker and things seemed to behave more predictably. While I wouldn't use Chrome on my iPhone as my primary browser, it usually gets the job done when I am out and about and just need to browse a site.
Hope this helps.
Jim
Unfortunetly.
It's clunky but I find it's mostly doable if slow at times.
Perhaps a newer phone might help or installing an add blocker like someone else mentioned here but for me it works well enough that I don't bother.
I think android and IOS are the same.
I think if you tried android you'd probably have the same experience.
Like I said it works for me. If I had to use it on a day to day basses i could but much prefer browsing on my laptop.
Ad blockers, Android.
I tried a much older version of Android than is out now, 6 I think, but I never even got browsing working on it, so in that respect, iOS is winning.
If I install an ad blocker in Safari, do I get it in Firefox too, since they're using the same engine? I do want it for the device synchronization yes. But that's why I tried both browsers, to see if there was any difference.
I loathe Chrome and will only use it when forced to.
I don't know if this is useful but.
Here's a link for an app called firefox focus: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/firefox-focus-privacy-browser/id1055677337
Windows > iOS > macOS
Browsing on Windows is very refined. On iOS, it can be made pretty great with good customisation and content filters. On macOSāwell, on macOS you're really just sailing in the wind. Sometimes you're lucky, and sometimes you're not.
A Couple Things to Improve the Web Browsing Experience
Hello,
A couple things I have found that make web browsing on iOS usable are:
Employ an adblocker, as others have suggested. I use Pi-hole which requires a Raspberry Pi to be configured, but once done, provides network-wide adblocking to all devices. You can also use one just for the browser as this should easily eliminate a lot of clutter on websites.
the second thing is to set a gesture for heading navigation, and to set one for same heading level. If you want to navigate by all heading levels you can do so with a 2-finger swipe right. This is like pressing "H" on a Windows PC. Then, if you need to go by heading 3, for instance, you can set this up with a 3-finger swipe right once you initially get to a heading 3. These can be done in Settings>Accessibility>VoiceOver>Commands>Touch Gestures and choose the action you would like. For example, I have under the 2-finger swipe right, "Move to next heading", and under the 2-finger swipe left, "Move to previous heading".
Under 3-finger swipe left, I have "Move to previous same heading" and under 3-finger swipe right: "Move to next same heading".
These gestures allow you to move through a web page quickly, without needing to invoke the rotor to navigate by your preferred/needed element.
@Brad (Firefox Focus)
Firefox Focus is very similar in functionality as Duck Duck Go. It is great for navigating from one website to another, and the pages load significantly faster than they would on a "traditional" browser. It is definitely worth a try, but consider this; how often do you want to login to the same accounts in a single day? I ask because, unless you never close the browser, your history, passwords, etc, etc are erased. Every time.
Food for thought. š
@Oliver re: Pi-hole
Hi Oliver,
Yes, if you configure Pi-hole, it will take care of adblocking across your network. There is no need to employ an additional adblocker for your browser. You can even configure a VPN through OpenVPN or Wireguard to run Pi-hole while out and about.
Thanks,
Rachel.
Safari
When my friend uses my iPhone without VO she does not complained about safari. Me think is a VO issue. Maybe when iOS let third party browsers in the US it might be different. Not.
In The Minority
I guess I must be in the minority. I use my iPhone and iPad Pro for web browsing all the time. I really don't have any complaints. The only site that gives me problems is 9to5mac.com. The thing I don't like about that particular site is I can't find a way to read the comments posted on articles. I believe that is a problem with the site and not an iOS or iPad OS problem. I rarely use my computer for web browsing. I mainly use the phone or iPad.
use adguard
I used adguard and noticed a huge better web browsing experience
Oh yeah.
I'd personally not use FireFox Focus, it's to, let's throw everything away! For me.
I can navigate on websites with IOS, it can just be clunky from time to time.
I use chrome
I use chrome on all of my devices and I like the experience. I will say that I kind of like browsing a lot more on my android tablet and on my windows computer.
Browsing.
I haven't tried Adguard yet, I'm trying to space out phone stuff so I don't end up getting frustrated. It's also why I'm asking a bunch of questions here, to get some tips.
Speaking of which, Earle, any browsing tips? My sample site is:
http://www.cracked.com
Navigate by headings, pick an article. Read it, or at least click the link. Go back. What I'm finding, this was with a Bluetooth keyboard, is that you get a lot of jumping around. I'm used to the browser being on the link I was on when I go back a page.
So if I was on, say, "five awesome things you can do with an iPhone as a blind person", and I go to that link to read that article, when I go back, I expect to be on that link again. Then I can just hit the headings key to go to the next article, since on Cracked at least, they've all got headings.
Don't worry if you're not using a keyboard, I have questions about that too. Suppose i pick an article. I get to the heading, and I swipe down with two fingers to read it. Sometimes, VO will stop reading. I haven't found a good way to touch the screen to get back to the place in the article where it was at when it stopped, so generally with longer text I just end up reading it from the top again by swiping down with two fingers.
This is the stuff that's been bothering me. I haven't tried say, shopping on Amazon, but that would probably be a lot more straightforward, because you're just looking for specific links and more or less going forward, e.g. picking thingy, adding it to cart, getting to the cart, checking out.
You're just going from page to page there, and barring things like ads or popups or what have you, I imagine it would be a pretty straightforward experience. But I often use the web for longer reading, e.g. Wikipedia, so for me, I started there, also because I figured it would be simpler, in terms of basic site navigation, e.g. I'm not trying to deal with a form or what have you.
I also need to try the reader mode. I haven't yet because I find that it sometimes cuts off articles, among other things. So I usually reserve it for sites I know are going to have a lot of junk I don't care about, e.g. news sites advertising other stories. That's less of an issue, at least for me, on something like Cracked or a wiki.
Default Reader, Roadblock
For what it's worth I default reader mode on, because it's more useful than not in the case of reading articles. I use Roadblock to aggressively stop external content loading, including CSS and web fonts. It's very fast! The downside is I have to maintain an allow-list of trusted sites, and sometimes it's not obvious I need to add to the list until I've reloaded without content blockers a couple of times and it gets old. Ultimately this is a spectrum between absolute convenience, at the cost of potential accessibility challenges and difficulties, to absolute refinement of the experience, at the cost of losing the functionality you want. I skew this latter way. You can use lire to access RSS feeds to consume information in lieu of the web when that's available. If you combine a well-tuned Safari, lire, Voice Control and AirPods Pro with transparency mode and accommodations enabled, it's actually possible to browse the news, hands-free. That's the payoff.
Safari vs Safari and other alternatives
I am unsure on how to go about this within iOS, but on the macOS side of things, you can "Hot Spot" a position on one webpage, move to another (via link, etc) and then when you return to the previous page, you press a specific hotkey and voila, you are literally at the last place you were before leaving that page.
In macOS, the hotkeys are:
1. Press Shift + VO + 1-9 to set a Hot Spot to keys 1-9.
2. Press VO + 1-9 to go to Hot Spot 1-9.
There may be a touch gesture for it in the VO settings under Commands in iOS. š¤·
Sadly, these days I do most things through the Windows OS bootcamp I've been running on my MBP the past 6 or 7 years. Web browsing via Firefox is absolutely amazing, and it does remember where you were if you leave a website via link or whatever, then return.
Regarding ad blocking, I prefer "Wipr", it has a one time fee, then it is pretty much yours for life, and is rather easy to set it up and be done with it. I also find it to be a better option than Ad Guard (Personal choice).
HTH. š
Your Sample Site
These are my findings using your sample site. First off, I use AdGuard. So my results will be different from yours. When I click on an article and use the read all command I'm able to hear the whole thing with no problems. If I hit
the
browser back button and then touch the middle of the screen, I find I'm located in the same place I was in when I clicked on the article. If I don't touch the middle of the screen first, I seem to be in a random spot. This is true even when I use a keyboard. I still need to touch the screen, or I'll be in the wrong spot. If I go to the site with AdGuard turned off, I can usually read the whole article without problems. When I hit the back button I'm usually where I need to be as long as I touch the screen. There are times when I find I'm in a different spot because of ads. So I have better results when I'm using AdGuard. As someone else said, you can always use the reader mode to read articles. You could even use the new listen to page option.
Thanks, that helps!
Ah see, I've been trying to do everything from the keyboard. Not that I've been ignoring the screen as such, I just figure if we've got keyboard commands, they should do what needs doing. But see this is why I ask for tips, because there are just things like this that make using iOS more efficient that I wouldn't think of on my own.
So I just had an experience.
Installed Adguard, went into Settings/Safari/Extensions and turned it on and allowed it for all sites, even allowed it for private browsing, though I'm not doing any of that. I fire up Cracked.
1. Hit h in quick nav, got to an article.
2. Hit up and down to double tap the article link.
3. Got a popup that started with "web dialogue", don't know what the ad was for, but I had to close that.
4. Hit up and down again, get to the article.
5. Had to hit h a couple of times to actually get to the article, because it stuck me at the end. Read the article with VO-a.
6. In the middle of the article, got what I assume was an image that started with "advertisement". So I question Adguard's effectiveness, or indeed whether or not it's actually doing anything.
7. Went back with Vo-` *grave( the equivalent of the scrub gesture. Touched the center of the screen with a finger. Absolutely nothing happened. Used the keyboard, appeared to be stuck in the status line, the thing at the top, for some reason. Moved around the screen by sliding, got somewhere, but it seemed to be at the bottom of the screen, e.g. where the menu button is. I stopped at that point.
I would love to Skype or Discord or something with one of you who are all, "I use my phone for everything, I haven't touched a desktop computer in years"! Because here's the thing. I agree, you should probably be able to do quite a lot of stuff on the phone. It's pretty much a computer, after all.
But I try to do what I consider super basic stuff like this, and this is the kind of thing I run into. You're all like, OMG the phone is so awesome! I'm like, I just had to screw around with this thing for half a minute just to get it to open a link and read it properly.
Where is this magic yous are all on about? Because as much as I'm trying, I can't imagine doing any kind of serious work on this thing, where "serious work" equals basic things like browsing the web, forget writing or coding or something.
Clearly, some of you are doing it. And I keep thinking, fine, it's my ignorance. And then I run into stuff like this, and it's honestly difficult for me to figure out what I might be doing wrong. I don't know what would make things feel more efficient and like every single action isn't like waking up somebody who's sleeping and trying to get them to respond. I don't know why simple things like "touch the center of the screen" simply do not seem to work for me.
It's just really frustrating because I just do not get it. I'm happy to keep assuming it's my own ignorance, but then I keep asking for tips on making the experience better, and usually I just get, oh go learn basic VO gestures, that's all you need! I mean, clearly not at this point. And I'm not even sure you can make the argument that I should be using the touch screen rather than a Bluetooth keyboard.
Because again, touching the screen in the center gave me no feedback whatsoever. No speech like I'd hit a link or heading, no clicky noise like I touched a blank area of the screen, literally nothing happened.
If anybody considers themselves an iOS guru, hit me up. I might even be able to pay for lessons. Because seriously, I would love to know what I'm missing. I keep wanting to use the phone for things to push it and see what I can do with it, e.g. podcasting, Youtube videos. but it's hard to get all excited about the supposed amazing possibilities when something this basic fails so damn hard. I could go grab the Lynx browser and do everything in a text console and have away better experience at this point.
My humble suggestion
While I am not claiming Guru rights, I would encourage you to get rid of Ad Guard and consider Wipr. And no, that is not a typo. . . As I mentioned above, it is a one time fee but incredibly worth it.
Check it out here.
You honestly aren't going toā¦
You honestly aren't going to like this, but if you don't have any physical reason why you can't use the touch screen, I would seriously use it as your primary way to use the phone. the fact is, almost no sighted users are using it with a keyboard as a primary input. Heck, it's barely official on the iPad, and there's far more support for it on that platform.
Sure, use it to type things, but try to use touch for everything else. Te other thing is, just because a workflow works on one platform, it doesn't mean it's the most efficient way to work on every platform. If you're having trouble on a particular sight reading articles and going back to the list of articles, there are so many other ways to try to do this. Open articles in multiple tabs and read them one after the other. Use Safari reading list. Use something like pocket or Instapaper. Subscribe to an RSS feed in a news reader. Also, as a few others have said, if reading articles is a big part of your web usage, definitely have reader mode as the default. It's easy to turn it off on a site by site basis if you find it's not working well with particular sight.
I have no experience with adguard specifically, but there are quite a few different ad blockers out there if that one isn't working for you. I honestly just think it takes work to be efficient on a different platform if you're really good with something else. Windows to Mac, Mac to iOS, heck, iOS to Android. You can't really pick any of them up and be good at it right away. I use an iPad as my main computer, but I've been using iOS and iPad OS practically all day every day for gees, must be 12 years now. iOS/iPad OS is the only way I use the web now, and I like it and find it easy, or at least as easy as todays internet full of crap is ever going to be, āŗļø. Could also be though that after a while trying to use it, you don't enjoy it or whatever, and you're happier browsing on your PC. Nothing really wrong with that as far as I can see.
Add guard pro and hyper web are king
Iāve gone through dozens of blockers. And I keep coming back to add guard pro and hyper web. Everybody has their favorites and everyone is entitled to what works for them. I just think Edgard Pro tends to get rid of most of the advertisements. Hyper Webb tends to make everything work in a little more streamlined ay.
With that being said, safari and voiceover can be a pain. A lot of the gestures and rotor functions were great 10 years ago. But I think we need something new and different. What that is, I have no idea. But we need to move forward and away from what Can make using Safari very tedious
More browsing, articles, keyboard.
I just kind of picked Cracked because it's a fairly straightforward website, and it's something I check regularly. And I feel like some of these suggestions won't really solve the problem, e.g. turning on reader mode by default, great, cuts out junk, still doesn't help me move around in a list of articles. I also think you're all kind of looking at this the wrong way, so let's get away from articles.
I go to Amazon. I search for, let's say Kindle books. I see one. I go, OK I want to learn more about that, what's it about, how much is it, you know, the stuff you want to know when deciding whether you're going to buy something on Amazon. I'm done.
I want to go back and look at a different one. Now what? As with Cracked, we basically have a list of links, with headings. Am I hammering fifty Amazon links into Pocket to read them later? That seems pretty ridiculous. Again, on Windows, I'd open each result in a new tab, which would maintain my place in the list of results, because in essence, I've never left the list of results.
Saying that's not the way to do things in iOS is fine. But there should be a fairly straightforward way to accomplish this IMO very basic task. Again, I picked a site with a list of articles because it seems pretty simple, find the article, open it, find the beginning of the article, swipe down with two fingers or do VO-a to read it, finish, go back, find next article.
But again, this is exactly what I'd do if I were looking at a list of Amazon results, or results from some other store, as another example. There's just more potential complexity, e.g. if I actually want to buy something I'm dealing with buttons and/or links for a cart, possibly forms, that kind of thing.
But at bottom, just browsing the results and getting more details is *exactly* what I'm trying to do on Cracked, which is in essence navigating a simple list of links. So fine, I'm on Amazon in a list of search results, and I'm using the touch screen for this now. Let's also assume that when I go back to the list from a result, my place in the list is not maintained.
How am I navigating this efficiently? Yes, I might end up saying, I can browse on the phone, but it is awful and I'll only do it if I absolutely have to. But again, I'm assuming that any issues I come across using the phone are my own ignorance until proven otherwise.
As an example, I've been focusing on the keyboard because I use it to type, you can do stuff with VO on it, so I figure, why switch thingies? But now I know I should at least try focusing on the touch screen and using the keyboard only for typing. So this is something I can try. I can always abandon it, if I find it annoying or whatever.
Basically, I think it's easy to just throw up my hands and say I'm not great at using the phone, or I'm impatient, or whatever. That's why I'm trying to get tips, and thanks for all the help so far. I'd rather know how to do it and choose not to, than just assume it can't be done or I can't do it or whatever.
Like I said, it just gets frustrating when I'm doing very basic stuff like going to a page, clicking a link, doing something (reading it or whatever), and going back to the main page and getting stuck in part of the page or sent to a totally different area of the page or what have you. If this stuff is easier to deal with on the screen, great, just let me know what I'm doing with that, because I am apparently super dumb and have no clew whatsoever.
Khomus
Your right to be frustrated. The screen readers usability was great like 10 years ago. Itās not great now. Voiceover has fallen behind in many ways. Itās ahead in others. However, your comments are really needed to be directed at Apple directly. Nothing you say on this website is going to affect any change.
I agree with ash reign.
I made a comment before that they didn't care about anyone and I want to apologise for that comment.
I still think the way you write to people can come off a bit harsh at times, but that's more a person by person thing.
Anyway I do agree, you're going to need to let those at apple@accessibility.com know this stuff.
Oh and to answer your question, I'd just use the app, I'd never brows amazon with safari, it's like youtube, you can do it but I find the app so much easier.
Now if there was a way I could use addguard for the youtube app, that would be amazing but unfortunetly it doesn't exist.
I'm not necessarily looking for change though.
I mean, OK, sure, yes, if I can't get X done because Y is broken, sure. That's not really what's happening here.
Take Earle's tip. Click a link, do whatever, go back. Touch the center of the screen, and you'll be in about the place you were.
I did that. I did not get to the place I was at. Now, before I go complaining to Apple, it seems to me that I should make sure I was doing it right, and it really *is* some sort of issue. Or take the keyboard.
Sometimes I'd go back and just get a word of the page, and moving around with the keyboard, that was all the screen appeared to be. Touching the screen, I usually had to slide around it for a bit, fixed that, it got it back into the body of the page.
So when VO thinks it's in the page, the keyboard actually works fairly well. I can navigate by headings, usually click links, and so on. It does seem that VO gets confused sometimes, but this is why I'm asking about tips for screen navigation. Because I'm not entirely sure you can just blame it on the keyboard, and so I have to go complain to Apple about how they need to improve keyboard navigation with VO.
I apologize for the harshness, as I've mentioned, I get frustrated with the phone sometimes. That's because I see some people here going "oh I do all the web on my phone", and I'm going, how? See the above experiences for why that is.
Now it may indeed be the case that Apple needs to change something, or these people have a much higher threshold for something, waiting for pages to load, using a touch screen, whatever, than I happen to have. But if I can't do something, and multiple people say they can do it just fine, to the point that's all they ever use? Then I assume the problem is mine, not Apple's, until proven otherwise.
Re: Amazon
Fine. I'm here.
https://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/index.php
I search for banjo. I click the first link. Then I want to go back and click the fourth one, and then the seventh, and then the fifteenth, it doesn't matter what, I'm just trying to go through that list and hear recordings that interest me. There is no app. The website is all you get.
How am I navigating it?
Can't Be Done
I was going to advise you that you could certainly open a new tab for a link (double tap and hold, choose the option to open in a new tab) but it turns out that this doesn't help you anyway, because even if you close the tab by pressing and holding the tabs button and choosing to close this tab, VoiceOver still ends up resetting and refreshing your position on the page.
So the bad news is this: you can't go back to a previous position on a page in your navigation history, however you get there, regardless of whether you use the touchscreen. Your specific requirement can't be met. Sorry to bring the bad news, but we simply aren't feeling the pinch sufficiently to appreciate it. I suggest you reach out to Apple and bug them, because it certainly seems like something you should have, and as ultimately they're the only people who could judge the feasibility of this feature.
I agree.
It doesn't bother me at all, I don't brows that much so reach out to them and hopefully they can fix it.
So there's no trick to even get close?
Sticking with the Cylinder Recordings Archive, they do 25 results per page, it looks like. So if I'm on twelve, and I click that link, then go back, the only way to get to fifteen is to set the rotor to links, and navigate through them all until I get to fifteen?
Put another way, OK, it doesn't maintain my place. Given that, do we have any better ways to navigate a list like this other than start at the top of the page and scroll through every link until you get back to where you were?
Again, thank you everybody so much for the help, and checking out pages. I'm fine with it not holding place, and yes if I decide that's needed, I should go complain to Apple. But right now I'm literally just trying to understand the best way to browse on a phone. So as an example, the advice to mostly use the screen rather than a keyboard, (although I wonder if you run into the same problems with things like the Hable), is probably going to be pretty helpful, and not something I would have necessarily thought of.
That's because I tend to stick to a thing unless I have to switch. So if I just have the phone with me, I'm likely to use the screen rather than a keyboard, unless I'm in a situation where that makes sense. But then I'd just stick to the keyboard for a while. So sure, I thought of maintaining place and tabs and all because that's what I'm used to. But on a touch screen, opening things in new tabs might not make a lot of sense, for instance.
So like I said, I'm just trying to figure out how to navigate a page like the Cylinders archive because, well navigating other pages seems simpler, you'd be doing less with them. Although now that I think of it, navigating the Cylinders archive would be like doing a Google search, right? Same thing, I search for whatever, I look at the first result, then I want to go back and look at more results and check out another one. So there we're just starting at the top of the results and scrolling through every time?
I just tried the website and it's doable.
You need to use the touch screen for this, I searched for french but anything should do.
So search for your music, then either use the unvisited links rotor action, or I think you can use headings in this case but I'm not sure, tap on a link,, then find the first unlabled button, tap on it, then tap on back.
Now put your finger near the middle of the screen, I'm not sure if this really matters that much, you basically need screen space, and you should be either one flick away from the next number or a couple of flicks away, it shouldn't be anything to frustrating.
You can also slide your flicking finger up or down on the screen slightly to hear the links much faster.
This is doable, it just takes a bit of getting used to.
Visited/Unvisited Rotor
Great idea! It still takes work, but switching to visited in the rotor (once added) would give you the means to get to the last link you followed: do four fingers near the bottom to go to end, swipe left till you're back in the web content, switch to visited in the rotor, and flick up once. And indeed, I do do this myself, so I'm not sure why I failed to suggest it ...
Thanks!
I'll give that a shot. It also might work for keyboard because you can get through the rotor options there. The big thing would be getting it back in the web content. The reason I'm thinking about keyboard is partly just to see if it can be done, but also I think I mentioned something like the Hable, which claims you can control your phone without using the screen.
So it just makes me curious what kind of control you'd really get. I assume it would work more or less like a Bluetooth keyboard though, unless it calls on the braille display commands instead? I have one of those too, which I haven't hooked up yet. So I'm just thinking of what you can do with each thingy. Screen is probably a great place to start, and now I've got some great tips.
I assume you can also go to the top of the screen too and do the same trick with unvisited? This would depend on knowing the site layout a bit, but I'm thinking for something like Cracked, for instance, that it might be simpler to start from the top, since newer stuff is first, although there ,headings would also be a good option. Cylinders doesn't have headings for some reason, so cool that we've got multiple ways to tackle this. Thanks everybody!
You would be better with a braille keyboard like the Orbit
I say this for a few reasons:
1 if you want to use the old North American braille code it is properly added in iOS. hable's has errors.
2 You have a lot of commands you can add your own keys for if using a orbit writer or a braille display. With Hable You can't customize the key map or add your own keys.
Hable Value Proposition
Veering slightly OT, but agree with Dennis, really don't get it. The Hable effectively behaves like a Bluetooth keyboard, but that makes it less flexible than Braille input from a Braille keyboard. It's very odd. I guess it makes certain tasks easier to have the translation done on the Hable side, and you can have dedicated commands for launching apps and controlling media and stuff, but realistically you're not gaining much on just adding your own VO commands. I dunno, has anyone got anything positive to say about it? Does it add any value?
I'm confused.
As someone who's not used iether product, can you break it down for me?
My understanding is the hable doesn't output braille but that shouldn't be an issue if you're just wanting a bluetooth keyboard but in braille form, should it?
It doesn't output braille.
But from what I understand, it's sort of like a braille keyboard, but it doesn't behave like one. That is, it's not like a braille display with a keyboard, it uses its own commands. To be fair, I'm just going from what I've read of it.
The only reason I'm digging into alternative control for the phone is like I said, I find it kind of annoying to have to switch control methods. I'm sure I can get used to it, but for now, it's annoying to go, oh yeah I can do X on the keyboard, e.g. some extended writing, and now I have to switch to the screen.
Plus, if you think of something like the Orbit Writer, then you might have your phone in your pocket, so you'd want the most control over it without having to switch. To get back to browsing, stuff like navigating by headings and using the rotor and stuff works just fine from a Bluetooth keyboard. So the suggestion for using unvisited links, for instance, should work from the keyboard.
It might be a bit slower than the screen, but it works, I know this because I was browsing by headings and such before on Cracked. The big issue is placement, or more correctly, getting back to the link for the article or recording or whatever that you last read.
I do think using the screen is a great suggestion, it's something I need to get more familiar with anyway and specifically the gestures like touching the bottom of the screen to move around. But again, VO's keyboard commands should have equivalents, e.g. "Select the first or last item
Control-Up Arrow or Control-Down Arrow", that's with quick nav enabled.
I'll have to check what using a braille display is like, because if it gives more control, then the Orbit Writer would certainly be more portable than a standard BT keyboard. But I will say again, I think a lot of the issues with using a keyboard on the web aren't because stuff's not supported or something.
It gets back to the advice given about unvisited links, you get to a place on the screen, and then you have to get back into the web content. Sometimes when you go back with the keyboard, it doesn't seem to be in the web content area, so you have to figure out how to get back there.
I don't know if there's a way to do it without the screen, I'll keep investigating. And then there's the other issue, once you're back in it, you're probably not at the last place you were, so how are you getting there?
But as we've seen, this is an issue if you're using a touch screen as well, we just have a method or two for doing it now, thanks to you guys investigating. But those methods should also work with a BT keyboard and I assume a braille display/braille keyboard like the Orbit Writer as well. Bluetooth certainly has a method for accessing the rotor, as well as the web quick nav stuff like headings, and I assume a braille display has similar commands.
I don't think it's about control.
I don't think it matters what device you use, you're going to come across these bugs/issues.
Using a hable keyboard isn't going to make voiceover stay on the link you were on.
I honestly think using your phones touch screen would be best, that way you can learn to type and use the phone, then if you want to be lazy then you could use the bluetooth stuff but that's just how i'd do it.
Oh no, you misunderstand me.
I don't think something like a Hable would make it stay on the link either, in fact, my whole point is the controller, so to speak, doesn't seem to matter. I still have to get back into the web content area and then get back to where I was, no matter if I'm using a screen, or a Bluetooth keyboard, or I presume a braille display, or whatever.
I also don't think something like a keyboard is lazy, as such. As an example, say I'm writing a blog post. I want to look up something on Wikipedia and copy and paste it into the post I'm working on. Doesn't it seem far more straightforward to use the keyboard for that, instead of breaking my workflow to switch to the phone's screen, and then back to the keyboard?
Or imagine I'm in a vehicle, maybe a keyboard, (I'm including a braille display with a keyboard here), would be more stable to work with because it would be less affected by movement. Or, actually a display is a great example. I'm pretty sure there are deaf-blind folks using iOS devices, should they have to try and juggle a phone and a display? It makes far more sense to just stay on the display, whenever it's possible, even if you can use the screen and speech.
So I don't think a not screen is bringing anything special to the table. I just think I should be able to do whatever *without* the screen, if I want to. That might not always be possible, of course. But something like web browsing should be pretty doable. In fact, I'm off to look at the articles and podcasts on using a braille display now, so I can go and try using one with the phone. I'm doing the screen yet.
I see your point.
If you're deafblind then yes you're going to need to use the extra tech but I personally have just used the phone for everything.
I have a laptop that I use more for web browsing but I can do it on the phone if needed, I just don't open extra tabs if i don't need to.
It's a bit fiddly but it's doable.
I tried a bluetooth keyboard but found it wasn't needed as i can type using the on screen one.