Apple Releases macOS Sonoma 14.1, watchOS 10.1, and tvOS 17.1

Hi,
I have no idea why, but the update to watchOS 10.1 keeps failing to install onto my Apple Watch series 7.
Has anyone else had this experience and might be able to tell me what’s going on here?

The subject says it all. As of MacOS 14.1, all 20 ring/text tones are included. the classic section is also their as well.

So I upgraded the second this landed, hoping it would fix some of my issues. So here we go again...

VO+J - still has new behaviour so in my opinion is broken even if this is intentional.

Activities still switch as soon as you use VO to navigate.

And the problem with using option+right/left to move around words has, well, changed.

This is in Smultron:

one.two/three.four/five.six

If I am at the start of the line and hit option+right I hear "one period two slash". At this point the cursor is actually just after the first dot. If I press option+right again I get nothing. It just doesn't budge.

In Text Edit it behaves more sensibly. If I do the same test in Safari's address bar, it has the behaviour introduced in the first Sonoma, in that it repeats the text as you move around and it's really hard to know where you are.

In PyCharm it is just repeating punctuation all over the place.

Not tried anything else yet but so far I would say this is worse again.

Are there any other ways of moving around text quickly? I like to move forwards and backwards a word at a time so I can take in what's being said.

Oh this is even worse in terminal. I had "aws lambs describe-function --etc...." So from the start I get "aws" then "lambda", that's fine, then just "function". But if I now use option+left to go back I get "describe function".

So option+left is now working differently to option+right.

Why is this so difficult !!!!!

And the minor issue that clicking a button doesn't always make that noise to indicate that you've done it and sometimes appears to do nothing is still there.

Well, I still can't get into Amazon Web Services console as I just get Safari Not Responding. But I have noticed something else which I don't think is new to this version as I had it yesterday before upgrading but I've never had it before Sonoma.

A couple of times, Safari has just gone totally quiet. I don't hear anything. If I cmd+tab away I still don' hear anything. I don't think that's doing anything. I eventually fixed it by using keyboard commander to take me to another app. Even turning VoiceOver on and off didn't help. Although I did hear VoiceOver tell me that it was turning on and off.

Not sure if this is just a mutation of the Not Responding bug. Maybe now even the bit that tells you it isn't responding is itself not responding. Either way it's annoying.

So far all bugs from previous version still seem to be here. Annoying heading navigation, the problem with speaking after smart quotes (at least I can't hear the Siri wake words combo still), the annoying weird focus things I get in PyCharm.

I am finding editing code almost impossibly difficult, more so now. I wonder if there is any scope for me asking for my money back and I'll just go back to my crappy old Intel iMac.

Ah, I think this is related to the bug introduced in previous Sonoma. So you click a button in Safari but it is deadly silent. The button click has happened, but VoiceOver has sneakily interacted with the button. In the previous version this was weird but harmless enough.

Now what seems to happen is that when you are interacting with the button you get a bit stuck. I had it here when I saved my last comment and on another page where I happened to click a button to copy code to clipboard although it was a bit different.

On here, Safari went silent. I couldn't command tab away and I felt stuck. So I asked VO where I was and it told me in a text element. So I stopped interacting and found I was inside the Save button. Then I was OK.

On the other page, I clicked the button and was then using vo+right to carry on with the page. But I found cmd+tab wasn't working. And I couldn't navigate by heading. The keyboardd commander bailed me out, and when I switched back to Safari I just got Not Responding a load of times.

Seriously, I am having to use all my willpower not to go on an expletive laden rant right now. What the hell, Apple? How have you made it worse again!?

So I was emailing Apple asking for an update on the fix for my code editing problem (yeah, I know...)

I have VoiceOver set to read characters and words.

I noticed that whenever I typed a word of more than a couple of syllables, VoiceOver would often just read out half of it and then sometimes complain that I had a spelling error. Sometimes it would then correct itself I think but other times not.

For example I typed "impossible" and it said something like "imposs misspelled impossible". Other times I guess it thought the word was OK and just carried on without the correction.

This was just replying to Apple's email. It didn't recur when I just opened anew Mail. So maybe just a random one-off.

I just can't help but feel that the Mac just is struggling all over the place since Sonoma. I don't know what's wrong with it. I guess I have this naive optimism that there is just one thing that's disrupting everything else and if they just fix it then a load of issues will go away.

Maybe this isn't new. I usually find it easier to type in a text document and copy/paste it in..

Doing a search, then jumping to headings, then vo+right to read some more and I just seem to get stuck in the link and further vo+rights just read the url over and over again. I can stop interacting to carry on but I'm sure it never did this before I upgraded today.

Anyone else seeing this behaviour?

Mr Grieves,

For the issue you are having with your left Option key; try doing as you have been, but also while holding down the Function (FN) key.

I believe your Option key is seemingly acting up because you have Keyboard Commander setup on that key, and believe it or not, its an old issue , where the Option key used for KB Commander will not work "as intended" for normal functions unless you hold the FN key.

HTH. 😀

Mr Grieves,

You can alternatively disable Keyboard Commander, by pressing VO + Shift + "K".
You can press again to reactivate it.
This might also help with some of the keyboard issues you are experiencing.

For the person who has their watch not installing, make sure it's on the charger, it won't install until it's 50% or more. Also I'm disappointed siri isn't talking the same on the watch as it is on the phone. I like the faster speed so this siri is pretty slow in comparison.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have keyboard commander set to the right option key and am using the left one. I tried turning keyboard commander off altogether and that didn't seem to help.

I'm using an external keyboard and have forgotten where the fn key is on it. So I switched to the MacBook keyboard and the problem happens on there. I believe fn on that keyboard is bottom left but it is obviously tied to some other entirely different function as it certainly wasn't moving the cursor around when holding that one down too. In Webstorm I think it is putting the focus in the project tree then just reading out what's selected there. In Smultron it just goes pop.

My feeling is that the keys are actually working correctly, but it's just that VoiceOver is reading out entirely the wrong thing. Which makes it even more confusing to me.

But I'll try anything. I'd even do without keyboard commander if I had to, even though it is one of the few things that is actually doing what I want it to!

I got 10.1 to install on my Series 9 Apple Watch. The inability to single finger double tap has not gone away. I am not aware of any setting that I can change that will allow me to modify tap speed as many of us had to do on iOS when 17 first came out. Any fixes or work-arounds for the watch? Thanks!

In that case, it may be that your FN key is set to perform another function when pressed. I believe the setting is somewhere in the keyboard settings (System Settings > Keyboard). There is a setting that specifically controls what FN does when pressed. Not sure when exactly Apple added this, but it is present as far back as macOS 11 Big Sur.

Anyway, find it. Change it. Make your life better. At least, in theory. 🙂 > Keyboard,

If I go to System Settings, then Keyboard then Keyboard shortcuts I can choose what each modifier key does. For my Logitech MX Keys I have the option of choosing what fn does, but if I switch to the apple internal keyboard I don't. But all settings for both keyboards are normal.

I have set function keys to not require Fn being held down because I have no idea what any of the media keys do nor do I want to use them very much. Too much for my aching old brain to cope with.

I am noticing that the system settings app on the Mac is, well, let's say very in keeping with my other experiencing on the Mac at the moment. Other than lots of Not Responding errors as I go up and down the categories, I also find that if I use the cursor keys to do so it will sometimes repeat categories. I think maybe it's looping randomly over them or something. Also it is really poor when you are trying to go past one of them - Passwords possibly - and it just randomly pops up a dialog for you to enter your password. And then I get to Java at the bottom and it judders and up pops another stupid dialog. I guess those settings made sense before the redesigned settings app. Anyway, minor things really.

I do have this horrible feeling that my experiences with the Mac are all just me. Sure I know there are some bugs that others have also come across, but the ones that are bugging me the most don't seem to have been confirmed by anyone else. Maybe no one else is foolish enough to code on their Macs. Or maybe those that do are more sensible and aren't upgrading.

I would be interested if anyone could try to reproduce the option problem. I can do it quite easily:

1. Open Safari
2. Go to the address bar
3. Paste in: one.two/three.four/five.six
4. Use command+left to jump to the start of the address
5. Press option+right. It should say one two
6. Press option+right again. It should say one two again. Well, it absolutely shouldn't.

I don't think it has any bearing on punctuation settings.

Make sure you are sitting down and take a few deep breaths....

I may have actually found something they fixed! No doubt I'll be back in 5 seconds to say "no wait it's broken again", but let's just try and enjoy the moment.

If I use cmd+tab (and it's bothering to work) then VoiceOver seems able to read the first application! Well done VoiceOver! Time to get out the bunting.

Ok, apologies if I am not clear in my instructions, or if I am misunderstanding you. Here goes....

When I go to System Prefs/Settings > Keyboard, there are 5 choices:
1. Keyboard.
2. Text.
3. Shortcuts.
4. Input Sources.
5. Dictation.

For me, if I leave the Keyboard tab selected, and navigate through the options with VO, I will hear VO say, "Press Fn key to..." followed by a Pop-up menu that (for me) is set to "Do nothing".
The other possibilities in that pop-up menu are:
• Change Input Source.
• Show Emoji and Symbols
• Start Dictation (press FN key twice).

What is yours set to?

Well on the keyboard settings prior to this version I did see the option you mentioned. I now see "🌐︎" which has options for dictation etc. I've no idea what this key is. It's currently set to emoji and symbols.

Ah.... so have they just changed the name of the Fn key? I think that is what it's doing. I've set it to do nothing but it still doesn't do a lot when in WebStorm. As mentioned, I think the keyboard is doing the right thing, I think it's just VoiceOver being... well, doing what it does.

ON the topic of cmd+tab not working I think my previous theory was wrong. It happened again and I've no idea why.

Hi
On some keyboards the FN key is indeed now the globe key, and changing it to not activate dictation or switch to emoji has resolved` a lot of issues for me.

Best
Malthe

I have noticed that this behaviour is tied to the "when moving the cursor" option under text in verbosity.

I have it set to speak text that the cursor passes. If I change this to speak text to the right of the cursor, the problem changes.

My problem with the other option is that it means I can never move to the end of a line. So I'm never able to use option+right to get all the way along a line. If I do change it, then my Safari test is fixed, but I never get past "three four".

I have heard in the past that this change is a good idea for editing text as it fixes various problems. I guess it's also closer to Windows screen readers so that's maybe advantageous. Right now I am finding editing text with NVDA really tricky.

In WebStorm its behaviour was a little different. So pressing option+right roughly skips per word, although it does bring in punctuation. If I keep pressing option+right it goes to the next line. So literally it will speak the text it is passing (not to the right) and then move down to the next line, and jump over the indentation so the cursor is now aligned underneath. So it's not spoken what's on the right at all. It is also quite confusing with the punctuation.

I am finding it really hard to get my head around how this is working. I'll give it a go and see if I can tolerate it. If the other way means I have no idea what the code is nor where the cursor is, this way I at least have some idea what the code is saying although I am struggling even more to know where the cursor is.

I think since the first day I started trying to use a computer screen reader, understanding exactly what text is there and where my cursor is in relation to it has always been a big challenge. It feels like the default option should be illogical if it worked properly. But then if I ultimately end up in Windows it won't help me much.

Do you mean "Command" plus "left arrow" or "right arrow" to get to the beginning and end of the text? Or do you mean "Option" plus "left arrow" or "right arrow" to navigate back and forth by words?
Apologies, just seeking clarification.
Also, I can confirm that even as far back as Big Sur, I cannot navigate by words, using an "Option" key if Keyboard Commander is active. Thank the powers that be for the command to toggle it off and on.

Subject is pretty accurate. For some reason my wi-fi got disconnected once my Mac rebooted, but I was able to go into settings and re-connect it. I think this happened because I switched wi-fi networks yesterday. For some reason, my Mac has been on the downstairs wi-fi for awhile which isn't mine. But I removed that one from the list of networks. Other than that though, so far so good on my end. I'm currently using Safari and thus far it's behaving as it should.

I installed 10.1 on my ultra 2 watch last night. I do not understand exactly how the double tap using my finger and thumb works on the timer, for example. I start the timer and the tap my finger and thumb together twice with no result. I have been able to bring up the widgets. Is there anything else I should be doing. I went into the gestures section under setting in the watch app on my iPhone 14 pro and turned all the double tap options on.

Mr Grieves

This may help you to better understand the way these cursors work between the various screen readers, or in case of VO, the 2 choices we are given.
As I understand it, you also have an iPhone? Let's use that as our model, shall we?

1. Place your iPhone on a flat surface.
2. Place your index finger to the left of the iPhone. Not touching it necessary, just to the left.
3. With the understanding that your finger is your cursor, and your iPhone is some text; if you:
3a. Drag your finger horizontally across the surface of your iPhone, from left to right or right to left, you would be "Reading text the cursor passes over".
or 3b. Leave your finger where it is, and consider that any text to the right of the cursor is read with "Read text to the right of cursor". The trouble you are experiencing, is when the next "text" is on a new line below the one you are on, and you are at the end of your line. You are probably hearing something like "Blank" read aloud. Just remember that, when you hear the word "Blank" read aloud at the end of a string of text, then you are at the end of that line.

HTH.

Thanks for the explanation. I think I get how the cursor works if I am moving it one letter at a time. It's really when I'm holding down option with left and right that it all gets quite confusing. For simple stuff it probably makes some sense. So if I had "the quick brown fox" and I was at the far left, going option+right seems to read "the" in both cases. If I then move one letter right I get "q" by default or "u" if I am using the read to the right mode. Again this sort of make sense. The default makes much more sense to me as it means I am getting everything read out as I move right. But I get the logic of the other way. It just means I would really need to move around a bit to know I was in front of a q which wasn't read out. I think I could get used to this behaviour if I had to. The main problem comes in when you introduced punctuation into the mix. At that point it's very, very hard to ever know where the cursor is thanks to Sonoma changes.

So going back to my "one.two/three.four/five.six" example. From the far left, going option+right right reads "one two" but the cursor is actually in the middle somewhere. And then going option+right reads "one two" again and now I'm somewhere around the first slash. This is with default VO style. But with reading to the right it just flips around all over the place. I would never really expect option+right to move down a line.

Again I've got no problems using left and right without option. But the way I navigate code is to use up and down to move lines, hearing what each line is. Then I'll option+left or right to either read the line more slowly or to move my cursor into position. And then I'll move left and right by characters if need be. So because option+right/right is so erratic I can never quite figure out where I am.

This isn't helped because I have a bit of a struggle with PyCharm, no doubt caused by my not so perfect typing. I will often end up with two commas or two apostrophes or brackets or whatever when I really only want one. And so I get a syntax error and I'm trying to find out where I've put it. When VoiceOver is literally telling me that I have two of almost every punctuation character it is just really difficult to make sense of it.

I've mentioned before that moving up and down lines is also problematic. It usually reads out the whole line, which is what I want. But sometimes it just reads out the word, punctuation mark or just space depending on what the cursor is. As an RP sufferer I got bad tunnel vision before going blind, and it's like that - I suddenly find I'm only looking at a tiny portion of the line but I can't be sure if that is the case or if the line really only has one word in it. Restarting VoiceOver fixes it, but now with Sonoma it does this virtually every time I change document in PyCharm so I end up restarting VoiceOver every minute or so sometimes.

I wonder if part of the problem is that there is nothing defined that says specifically how these things should work. But I can't read code without going line by line. And I can't read a line without skipping through the words.

I've not spent much time trying to edit text in Windows. So far it's just been dumping stuff into Notepad++ and then either going up and down to read it or copy/pasting bits out of it. I haven't quite made sense of how it works yet, but I need to really start using it properly to find out. Just so far every time I've tried to make the jump, something has thwarted my efforts. But maybe if it's a bit more stable it will start to make some sense. It doesn't help that option+left+right is now, probably, control+left/right so I keep pressing the wrong buttons and shooting off to god knows where.

Anyway, I will assume that the Windows way of working makes sense when you are used to it, but I am certain that the Mac way is all over the place in either case. For me the default Mac way should make perfect sense but if it is reading the same thing twice it can't possibly be correct..

I, too, struggle with this concept. Ever since I had to learn JAWS and (re)learn Windows with JAWS. The VO way makes a lot more sense to me, but if you find yourself switching between WindowsOS and macOS, it might e good to just brute force train yourself to be comfortable with the "read to the right" mode.

I'm kinda jealous, a lot actually, that this behavior isn't given to the series eight models. Anyway maybe you're double tapping your fingers together to slow or fast? Just an observation from a slightly perturbed person.

😜

With a "Y" Come on you gotta admit they could've.

No, this is just horrible, I can't cope with it. I think I can possibly get used to it on Windows, maybe, but on the Mac when it drops down to the next line it just means that the cursor is flying around all over the place. If I go forwards, then backwards, I should be where I started. Why is this never the case on the Mac??

I'm also confused as to why this setting should actually affect how the cursor moves. Surely it should only affect how it is spoken?

I never used to have this problem as much as everyone else, but it just seems to be happening more and more often now I'm on Sonoma. It's another thing that's becoming borderline unusable.

I was messing about with activities and I noticed an option I could swear I've never seen before.

I'm used to allowing an activity to automatically take effect for apps and web sites (although web sites always stops working for me after a while of using it). But I noticed a new option today "automatically switch to this activity for contexts". And you get options like Source Code, Social Media,Word Processing and so on.

I'm not entirely sure how VoiceOver would know what the current context is. In the docs it gives Xcode as an option for Source Code, so I'm not sure if this is purely for Apple apps and is just to make it more convenient than having to find Pages or Xcode or whatever from the apps menu. Although it would be nice if I could select Source Code and then have an activity apply to PyCharm, WebStorm, Xcode, Visual Studio Code or anything else I might choose to use in the future.

Anyone else tried this? Is it new in Sonoma or did I just fail to notice it before?

Though it may either have been given a recent update like Quick Nav, or I am thinking of the iOS version of VO Activities.

Well, that made me crank up the old intel iMac. That option doesn't seem to be there in Ventura.

I am going to try to bite my tongue that is desperate to say something incredibly sarcastic about this amazing new feature that Apple has been gracious to bestow upon us.

No, I can't help myself.... back away now...

I took the Sonoma plunge today.

The option+arrow behavior is disturbing. The fact that it behaves differently for option+Right versus Option+Left only compounds the problem. This happens in the mail body text field and also right here in the AppleVis comment entry field, but thankfully not in Scrivener, where VoiceOver correctly reads the text that the cursor moves past.

I've noticed rather odd behavior with Control+2 to move focus to the Menubar and Control+3 to move focus to the Dock. Focus does move, but there is no feedback from VoiceOver. If I Control+2 to move to the menubar and hear nothing, then right arrow three times and hear nothing, then finally down arrow, VoiceOver will start to read me entries from the Edit menu. So, focus is there, and controls work normally. It's just that VoiceOver has gone AWOL until I open a menu.

In addition to the newcomers, many familiar friends are still around.

With Google Drive in Safari, VoiceOver still fails to read file names while navigating through lists of files, forcing me to press VO+F3 to hear the file name. I was hoping this one would get fixed.

If I use VO+M to place focus in the menubar, then press Command+TAB to switch apps, VoiceOver reads every app as Apple, Apple, Apple. This one has been around for years too.

VoiceOver still incorrectly reds my comment text here in AppleVis as I up and down arrow through to review it. Another bug from the days of the dinosaurs, still present.

Many problems with dates still persist. The text 6 November 2023 should be read as six November twenty-twenty-three. Instead it varies by voice and often reads it in a manner that doesn't reflect the actual text as written. And if I say I was born in '29, VoiceOver incorrectly assumes 2029 and reads it that way, even if that wasn't what I typed and certainly wasn't what I meant unless I'm a time traveller. Are these features? If so, where are the controls?

Summary: Sigh. Long-standing serious issues remain unfixed, and lots of new issues to work around.

I went into VO Utility and told it to read numbers as digits instead of words, which isn't ideal, but works around the problems reading dates.

I noticed a new thunk sound that happens when I use numPad+4 to invoke a VO+left arrow. Note that the analogous numPad+6 for VO+right arrow doesn't make the thunk sound, nor does VO+left or VO+right. Very strange.

I've noticed the thunk sound in VO Utility, System Settings, and right here in Safari as I edit this comment. I can numPad+6 out of the text entry box, and when I numPad+4 back in, I get a thunk sound. But focus does move. So it's a head-scratcher.

I honestly seriously don't see why Apple doesn't higher you all to work for them.
All of these bugs would be squashed faster for sure, or code for Voiceover.
Just my thoughts.
I'd love to work on the team for Logic accessibility to make it more robust.
I'm from the days of Cakewalk Sonar 8.5 and Dancing Dots JAWS Scripts.
Reaper is great with OSARA... But still, Logic could be as great as well if us old timer's feedback was really listened too and used.

Raywonder

Agree with most of what you said regarding navigation and Sonoma. However, Control + F3 gets me into the Dock and VO does give me feedback immediately. Same for Control + F4 and F5. The rest I get nothin'.

I had been navigating around in System Settings Keyboard options, desperate to turn off inline predictive text (because, in Sonoma, inline predictive text turns composing emails into nightmares). And I was using the numPad arrow keys of course. Guess what happens when you navigate past the dictation keyboard shortcut field with numPad+Left?

After I did that, pretty much every time I pressed numPad+Left, it tried and failed to enter dictation mode, and that's what the thunk sound was.

Once I figured out it was trying to dictate, it was pretty easy to go back into System Settings and clear the shortcut.

This is the cost of an upgrade that no one ever talks about.

Kind of like the new emoji panel and Arrow-key Quick Nav hotkeys. I am starting to believe that Apple's business motto is, "If it ain't broke, just wait..."

I make heavy use of the VO+U web rotor for navigating web pages. Sonoma has changed how the web rotor works, and I'd really like the old behavior back.
Specific behaviors I'd like restored:

* In the Headings menu, VoiceOver is now announcing a heading level number followed by a pause, before announcing the heading level text. Having the number first followed by a pause simply slows down my usage. I'd like to restore the old behavior, which did not announce the heading level number. Or at least have VoiceOver read the heading level text first.
* If VoiceOver focus is in the middle of a web page, VO+U headings and links menus will now place VO focus on the menu at a comparable location, rather than at the top. I've found I can jump to top or bottom of the menu with the Home and End keys. This is probably a good change, but until I get used to it, it's just going to slow me down.

Has anyone discovered any controls for this behavior, or are we pretty much stuck with it? I search for controls for the new behaviors in the VO Utility Web category, but no such luck.

I'll mention it seems odd that the headings and links menus put focus in the menu near current focus, but the form controls menu doesn't. Half of me wants to know if there's a rational explanation for this apparent omission. The other half just wants to go to bed after a long day of battling this confusing panoply of changes.

Ok, so I am not sure if you are aware, apologies if you are...

You can modify the announce order for virtually every element that VO can focus on and read aloud.

For example, your last post, on my MBP, reads as:
"Web rotor changes heading level 3 ".

I basically moved the 'heading level' to be last thing read aloud.

To make these changes do the following:
1. Open VO Utility.
2. Navigate to Verbosity > Speech.
3. First thing you will hear is the 'Default Speech Verbosity'. Keep navigating until you hear, "additional speech verbosity options collapsed disclosure triangle"
4. Double tap that last option, and then you will have a 'Custom Verbosity Table' of every Element VO can focus/read.
5. To make your Headings like mine, navigate down to Headings within the table, click the 'Default' menu button, then up or down and enter on 'Custom'.
6. A new Dialog will appear with some basic instructions. There will also be a table with 3 items; something like Status, Name, Type. Change the order so Status is last and save and exit.

Now your headings will read like I mentioned above, also you should NOT have the weird pause anymore.

HTH.

I've always used num pad commander for headings until Sonoma broke it for when the headings have children so you don't know what the heading is. Since then I've had to revert to the rotor. I've also noticed the pause after the number. Just tried the verbosity idea but it made no difference for me. I'm not sure that affects the rotor.

First off let me apologize. When you say "Rotor" my mind goes to the trackpad and its commander, which allows for rotor gestures much like iOS and iPad OS. So when I activate the Trackpad commander and do the 2 finger "rotate" gesture to Headings, the Headings read out as I mentioned above.

Single-Key Quick Nav, Arrow-Key Quick Nav, and VO + Command + H (or Shift H) also read as I mention above.

Of course, neither of you are talking about "that" rotor. You are talking about the VO + 'u' rotor, which I personally have not used in years.

I honestly have no idea why that particular rotor reads out any different than the aforementioned, but there you go...

So, sorry about that, but I do not think that is fixable at this time.

Ah I guess the rotor you are on about is the same as the one that quick nav uses. I'd never really thought that there were two rotors. I guess the track pad and quick nav rotors are just ways to navigate by heading which is likely to have the same issues I'm facing with the num pad commander - i.e. VO tells me the number of child items and not actually what's in the heading. (Although this does work OK if the heading has only text in it and no child elements).

Wow. I never thought I would say this, but I am seriously considering backing out to yesterday morning, before I upgraded.

I don't like what this means for me and Apple long-term. We all know that not upgrading is a no-win situation. At the same time, as I ponder the changes in Sonoma, one thing has become clear. I have no idea what Apple's vision is for the future of MacOS. But whatever it is, I don't like it. I don't see how it benefits me. I don't see how it gives me what I want from a desktop computer.

If I stick with Sonoma, it seems like I'm committing to an uncertain future. Someone else is driving. I feel like I'm being kidnapped, with no idea where I'm being taken or what the future might hold.

If I back out to Ventura, I will become increasingly out of date and increasingly unable to participate in the Apple community. And by consequence, the AppleVis community.

I'm struggling. This is a real tough decision.

Yes, I've seen this in at least two situations. Somehow, VoiceOver implicitly begins interacting with something, and I need to press VO+Shift+Up arrow to stop interacting.

One, this happens with Google search results in Safari and Google Chrome, as Mr Grieves noted. Navigate search results by heading, find one that's interesting, and VO+Right to read the relevant text. Nope, can't VO+Right past that heading, not anymore.
Two, I also experience this on certain login pages - I enter a username and password, and then VO+Right does nothing. I have to stop interacting with whatever VO is interacting with, then VO+Right to the log in button.

It's worth noting that bugs are starting to compound. For example, I normally interact and stop interacting with numPad commander, 9 and 7 respectively. So if I'm in a password field and can't VO+Right because VoiceOver is implicitly interacting with something, and I press numPad+7 to stop interacting, well, you can't use numPad commander while in a password field anymore, since some ventura release broke it. So I end up inadvertently entering a stray numeral 7 into my password field. Thus Sonoma requires two mental leaps, one to remember to stop interacting with whatever VO has caught itself within, and the other to use VO+Shift+Up rather than numPad commander. The work around itself requires another work around.

A few years ago I began delaying upgrading Apple operating systems until the month before next year's operating system release. Doing so helped avoid all those nasty bugs it took Apple a year to fix, and I never suffered a disadvantage, since I stuck with what worked and waited until I could continue my pattern of upgrading 11 months after the release date. I doubt you'll suffer in any meaningful way if you delay the same way.

Joy!

Bruce

I'll try your approach, Bruce. But it takes more faith than I've got that the oddities introduced with Sonoma will ever be restored.

I'm creating a Ventura 13.6.1 thumb drive as I type. I'll hang on to it, and if I try a late 14.x sometime in the future and dislike it as much as 14.1, I can always back out again.

macOS Monterey is slated to get its last security update in the summer of 2024, which means Ventura will likely receive updates until about mid 2025.
So feel free to downgrade. I have said this in other threads, but I prefer Monterey to both Ventura and Sonoma. I've been thinking of downgrading myself, but my reasons and/or issues are a little different from the usual suspects others have mentioned on here.

Bottom line, Paul, downgrade to Ventura, and be secure in the knowledge that you will NOT be "out of date" for a few years.