So I would like to relay something that I was told. The Apple accessibility team would actually prefer phone calls. Consider that when we actually called them, there’s almost no weight. That means that they’re not getting enough calls on a daily basis. Calling them and making them turn on voiceover and go through all of these issues will mean that they have to submit Reports that go directly to the engineers. And then they have to send you back a progress update. Imagine if 100 of you guys called them on a daily basis. They would be absolutely overwhelmed and have to place a more meaningful focus on these bugs. If you guys called more often, they would turn voiceover on, and never turn it off. Which means that they would be interacting with it constantly, and understanding the importance of fixing these issues.
I’m not posting this for a conversation. Although I’m always open to a dialogue. I am absolutely begging you guys to reach out directly to Apple accessibility. Call them at 1-877-204-3930. That is of course the United States phone number. I’m sure there’s a more local number in your own regions. Make them create case numbers and call them back about the case numbers. They gave us this tool. It’s really important that we use it.
I do not want to call Apple accessibility and have no wait. I want to call them and know that you guys are on the phone with them and giving them as much feedback as possible. I repeat myself one more time. Apple accessibilities phone number has a more direct connection to the software engineers. When they create a case and submit feedback to the engineers, the engineers have to look at the issue and, they have to get back to you within 24 to 48 hours. Even if it’s just to say that they’re still working on the issue.
I know that some of you guys are using beta software. An Apple accessibility reps dont work on beta software. But most of you are running the most recent versions of iOS 16. And consider that iOS 17 is probably releasing in 3 to 4 weeks.
Please, please, please call them and call them often. I am literally begging you with all of my heart. Stop leaving just messages and comments if you’re going to submit, bug reports, regularly and consistently update them. But fundamentally, I think it’s more important to call Apple accessibility at 1-877-204-3930. Think if more of you guys did it, it would make a huge difference. Overwhelmed them. Exhaust them. Annoyed them. Make their lives focused on these bugs so that they actually have a reason to fix them. Call them.
I honestly do not care if there’s a language barrier. That is literally their problem. They created voiceover to work with multiple languages. Then they should have representatives that speak your language. If they don’t and you call them and you call them over and over again, that’s going to incentivize them to eventually higher people that do speak your language. Call them.
Comments
I get what you’re saying
, However, for me, it’s really annoying. Apple doesn’t like the fact that I’m under 18, but I want a parent or guardian. I can confirm this as I tried calling about my iPhone is issue a few months ago when it was keep on freezing, even though the home button would still work. I wanted a parent or guardian to speak with them. My mum doesn’t know anything about technology,, And I’m the person that always helps around with IT everywhere. At the end of the day I just hung up on them. I got wait two seconds I want to a parent or guardian, Utana, sometimes that isn’t an option
Great points. I’m surprised but appreciate the info.
I always assumed writing to them would be the most affective and I’ve done that. I’ll try calling in future. It’s been so frustrating that they weren’t taking things seriously and here was the only place where anyone even knew what I was going through and might possibly be able to offer some help from their own experience. The last year especially has been a terrible time for lots of us with Apple but it looks like they’re starting to get on top of things and knowing that they have to follow calls up is really useful. Thanks.
one more thing to keep in mind
a lot of bugs can't be fixed in a short time. The more complex it is the harder it is to fix mid cycle. You have release of OS insert any number You have priorities for what is going into different versions.
Dennis Long
Like the Braille issues people were having with iOS 16. I feel for those people. Hope the fix for Braille display continue.
I wonder if we can call and share case numbers
I actually wonder if we can call and when they give us a case number for our specific issues we can share them on this website and then other people can call them with that same case number and say that they’re also going through the problem that way Ed lens Credence to the fact that multiple people are going through a bug. And the more people that call about a problem, the more attention to get.
I think thats a great idea.
As they haven’t historically taken this seriously, anything we can do to force them to do so would be beneficial to the individual and the community. IMHO
Case numbers and FB numbers
I typically deal with them in email, since most days I can't use the phone anyway, and text relay is so slow. Great for some things, but I don't have enough time in my day to do that. Any public bugs that are listed on AppleVis have FB numbers. This is one of the reasons they are listed. When reporting a bug, if you are told they have not encountered it or that it's the first time they have heard of it, feel free to use the FB numbers we provide on the bug reports. I wish I could be of more support here!
We Aren't The Only Group With Accessibility Needs
While this sounds good in theory, barraging the (presumably small) accessibility team with call after call is a really bad idea. There are many other people who likely take advantage of that service who aren't blind, and you're preventing the accessibility team from being able to help them effectively.
Respectfully disagree with Zachary
How are the accessibility challenges of any group outweighing the principle of this post? Ash was saying the team isn't getting enough work and i can understand that. I have no knowledge on how well they are trained to use Voiceover, so maybe they just do a few things and send it to QA to decide it's good enough for shipping. simply put, they don't know better because we aren't squeaking loudly enough on any number of issues with any operating system, not just IOS. They have begun to do so much with TV, IOS, Mac, Watch, iPad,they are losing their core values despite what they will put out forth for media consumption which we all can agree it eats up like candy. Calling instead of email also has a real person verifying at least, there is a problem, not just a form letter which we all know is what most companies do. I mean you can sign your name to a form letter and it's still called a "reply. Dominic, Apple's privacy policy states somewhere that someone as young as you would need a parental guardian's consent to talk because for all they knew, apple has no way of knowing you're anything more then a child. If you really want to help accessibility along, have your Mom take you to either an Apple store or even Geeksquad and show off the issues. I also if possible recommend using both of those avenues so someone can actually see what you are doing and it's not just via email or even a phone call.
Don't call them too often
As dennis said, bugs take time to fix. I would only add to this very good thread that therefore, call them reasonably often. calling 24 hours after your initial call to say: well, come on, get yer finger out, why haven't you done anything yet? that's just rude, and a disability doesn't come with an in-built entitlement to be rude, though a healthy constituency thinks it does. It's about getting the balance right.
Calling
I know that they have one person who is blind that focus on bugs and accessibility. The person is blind. How many of them are blind? When Sara from apple came to applevis and talk about the greatness of apple she did not focus on bugs. She just talk about how fantastic apple is and AppleVis never push on it.
applevis not pushing back on Apple accessibility
As someone who has been in the past and to this day still works on projects let me try to explain why Applevis didn't push to hard. These are my own thoughts and are not putting words in the Applevis podcasters mouth.
1 Applevis wants to maintain a good relationship with Apple accessibility.
2 If apple is smart which they are they aren't going to say when x bug will be fixed. Put any bug in place of x. Lets pick on the focus bug. That was so hard to pin down you couldn't give a timeframe. It just isn't possible. If you want proof Apple cares about accessibility look at iOS 17. It is one of the best os updates i've seen. They have done a nice job. I really do believe they are listening. I do believe they care. Also when you file a bug report do a screen recording.
Note the time the bug occured. so as I write this currently. It is 12:43 AM.
so as an example only.
this is what I would put for a title
Focus jumped when reading an article in Safari on the website
www.applevis.com
Now to describe it.
AT 12:43 I was on again fictional link only
www.applevis.com/tuneinbugs
When reading through the comments focus jumped from the comments to the top of the page. This happened around 12:43 AM.
If it were reproducible 5 out of 5 times I would state that. I would also do a screen recording of it so they could see what happened. I would then state what do I expect to happen. example.
I expect to be able to read the comments and not be thrown to the top of the screen unless I invoke the gesture to go to the top of the screen. What actually happened: I was reading through the comments. In the middle of reading the third comment Voiceover threw me to the top of the screen. This is not what should've happened. What should've happened is I should be able to continue reading that comment along with any other comments. This is a serious productivity bug. Please fix ASAP. I also included the screen recording please watch it to see the bug in action. Thank you. Again this is a fictional bug report but meant to serve as an outline.
example of a bad bug report
focus jumped in Safari
Please fix focus jumped in Safari.
Well you may think that is good but you provide no context such as:
What website are you on?
What were you doing?
Does it happen all of the time?
What did it do?
What did you expect to happen?
No screen recording to show the problem if it is possible to reproduce it.
What date and time roughly did it happen so they can review logs. How often does the problem happen? Are there other example sites and specific pages you can include? How often roughly does it happen on those other sites? For me to fill out a good bug feedback report it takes between 10 and 30 minutes per report.
dennis
These are actually very instructive and useful examples. Thank you.
Dennis & Ash are on fire in this thread.
All really useful. Thanks.
I aim to help
Your welcome I aim to help. How can you improve if you have no idea how?
they are not available in Poland.
Hi.
there's no apple accessibility in Poland.
atleast I don't see it.
Pax
Just curious but in the U.S. the numbers with prefixes like 800, 888, etc are free to call. would that not be the case in Poland? I don't know a thing about international calls so I'm simply asking to learn more. Maybe do some research and see if somehow you can still call? Or maybe there's a different way in Polish to do the same thing?
Reps make follow up appointments when calling about issues
When calling Apple accessibility about bugs and other accessibility issues, they will do some testing with you on the phone. Most of the time they will do a remote screen share. If they can’t figure out how to resolve it, they will ask for a system diagnosis and even a screen recording. And, after providing a case number, they set up a follow up phone call appointment or email. This is usually around 48 to 72 hours or so. So you don’t have to call back over and over and over again. You just gotta make sure that they’re calling you back. I would like multiple people to call about the same case number and essentially say, ‘I am also going through this ,’ and then the representatives can go through the same stuff and then make another follow up appointment. If the engineers are getting pinged multiple times, they’re gonna start thinking this seems to be a more widespread issue, there’s probably a need to put more attention towards fixing it. so as you guys are suffering through the focus issues, I would say that the more people call about it, the more likely it is that these reps will become familiar with it. and then the engineers will become more aware of it.
Like I’ve said, calling them when using the iOS 17 beta isn’t always a great idea. They only work on official release software. But the majority of you are using the official release software. I haven’t provided any case numbers because I am on iOS 17 beta. When I install the Official release, I will be calling Apple accessibility to report the lingering bugs. Even if already created. F FB bug reports. Unfortunately, the Apple accessibility Team cannot use the. FB bug reports because they’re usually tied to beta software. So that’s why they create individual case numbers.
I think this can work really well. Making sure that we call them and that they are turning voiceover on on their side and keeping voiceover on. Will make sure that they become more familiar with it. And as they become more familiar with it, they’re going to start noticing, these issues on their own. I do not like the idea of these cited representatives, turning voiceover on only when necessary, and then after the call, turning it off and ignoring it. I also do not like them being so immediately available to me. I personally don’t need them for basic troubleshooting. I want them for Creating case numbers and making sure they communicate to the engineers.
It’s just an additional avenue to tap into. And if let’s say 25 of us are calling every day, 50 of us are calling every day, 100 of us are calling every day, they’re going to be so busy. And another thing to think about is that if they are busy, they’re going to request that more representatives to join that specific team. And then more attention will be put on accessibility as a whole.
I would add..
Lots of useful info in this thread, especially with regards to bug reporting to Apple. I would add that, if you have a work-around solution that you provide that as well. For example, In the Recents tab of the phone app a.k.a. the call log, I am sure most of you have experienced this at least once in your life; where you double tap on a name/number only to call the person below the one you wanted?
Well, there is a work-around for this. Flicking up or down and choosing activate has worked for me.
Providing this kind of info to Apple could be very useful to their developers, as it might help them pin down the exact issue.
Just a thought...
Regarding the post above mine; job security for the win! 😃
And calling also gives great support
I like how they can remote in with you and see exactly what you are doing and where you are having trouble. About half the calls I've made to Apple Accessibility turned out to be my lack of understanding rather than an actual bug. Fixing ME is always easier than fixing an Apple bug, so I'm super happy when it's my lack of understanding that gets easily fixed on a call!!!
I agree with this post 100 percent, but...
The last couple of times I called Apple Accessibility, It was not a good experience. I was shocked to discover that Apple seems to be outsourcing their call centers like far too many other companies. Anyway, if I ever encounter something that I think calling them would help with, I will certainly do so, but especially after the pandemic, I haven't had much luck with being connected to anyone who knows what they're doing and helps trouble shoot based on my skill level.
After reading this thread, I…
After reading this thread, I decided to test this yesterday.
I called the accessibility support number to ask how I could best report bugs, and to show them some relatively minor bugs I've seen that I could easily demo. Most noteably the fact that chapter navigation in the podcasts app with VO has been broken since around 16.4.
Indeed, the advisor picked up before the message about being able to listen to music while I waited was up. After he asked me what accessibility feature I was using, I tried to explain what was going on on my phone, and then remembered that I could do a screen share. This helped the guy a lot and he filed a report to have it looked into. Am I expecting a quick fix? no. But at least I may have reminded them of what I was seeing even though I reported the same issues when I was running betas. But he did tell me I could use the standard feedback page to self report, which I already knew about.
Since I tried and failed spectacularly at customer service work, I make a point to be extra polite whenever I have to call a company for support. I always think, and sometimes tell the person that I will be their "good call for the day" because I've seen it from the CSR's side. It's incredibly stressful and high pressure in a lot of cases and not everyone is cut out for work like that. I certainly was not! So I try to make it as easy as I can for them to help. I always try to thank them and use their name at the end of the call.
If I get really good service, I will also give them good feedback, because I'm empathetic to what they are dealing with. Last year I stayed at a hotel a couple blocks away while my apartment was being renovated. They were a good example of customer service done right. I joke that they treated me like a king lol. When I got the survey about my experience, I detailed what made it awesome, and name dropped specific people. I still sometimes walk in there just to say hi on my way to work, and they told me they saw my feedback and it made them happy.
Getting back to Apple accessibility, at least this first experience dealing with them was a positive one. I agree that calling them and explaining how bugs are impacting you can be a good thing, I also agree that constantly bugging them might have the opposite affect to what we are looking for.
Just my $0.02
How do you do s Screen share
Will it work on iPhone 11 or iPhone SE 2022?
a podcast to help you with screen recording
I just saw this in my email. I thought I would share.
Screen Recording on iPhone for Accessibility
Unmute Presents
Introduction: - Discussion about the inspiration for this episode from the latest DoubleTap show where host Sean talks about recording applications that
may not be fully accessible. Main Content: - Detailed walkthrough on how to record an iPhone screen and include voiceover, a useful tool for developers
to understand accessibility challenges. - Topics covered: Navigating an iPhone 12 without a home button. Adding the screen recording feature to the control
center. Reordering controls in the control center for screen recording. Starting and stopping screen recording. Sharing the recorded video with developers.
Conclusion: - Recap of the process and its potential benefits for app developers and users. - Invitation for listeners to reach out with any questions
or comments. Contact Information: - Encouragement for listeners to reach out on Mastodon at payown, P-A-Y-O-W-N, at unmute.community with any questions
or feedback. Remember to tune in to Unmute every Sunday for more insights and discussions on accessibility and technology! Support Unmute Presents by contributing
to their tip jar:
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This podcast is powered by Pinecast. Try Pinecast for free, forever, no credit card required. If you decide to upgrade, use coupon code r-e4dc67 for 40%
off for 4 months, and support Unmute Presents. Read transcript
Listen on Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unmute-presents/id1646722812?i=1000626585981
Brian Giles What is case number
So, if you can provide the case number, I would like to follow up with a call and let them know that I’m also going through the same issues. And other people can also call and say that they’re going through the same issues. But if you provide the case number, Makes it possible for extra weight to be put on it
calling
When I have had students call into the Apple Accessibility line for assistance either one of several things happens. 1 They receive someone who is very impatient and will not help them with their issue. Or 2 The customer service individual states that they are NOT allowed to help with 3rd party apps. I Know that as a customer service worker it can be frustrating to get questions about this or that, but being rude or impatient is not called for. Believe me as an Access Tech instructor some of my students can be frustrating, annoying, or just down right rude to me; but we are all human and have a rights to call and ask questions. When I have emailed the Apple Accessibility folks I have never heard back at all; its very much like my email goes into the ether. Does anyone know about their policy on helping with 3rd party apps?
I can understand why Apple Vis didn't push on a particular topic. What I don't understand is why certain organizations don't push on those same topics. It would be a really great idea if the Apple Accessibility had a website or page that listed all of the support tickets that have been submitted and what those tickets are about. That way us the public can see that others are in fact having the same problem or that no one has reported an issue. I know this would be a major undertaking for Apple, but it would allow us the public to know what is going on behind the scenes. Other Access Tech companies would also benefit from doing this too.
third party app support
Hi, for the person enquiring on third party app help, I can tell you about my experience.
A friend of mine also had this problem, and he was discouraged from wanting to try apple again in that regard, well I told him that I had a different experience and was able to get help.
I have an app called trifo home, it goes to a $400 robot vacuum, the problem was a lot of buttons in various screens were not labeled, along with the tabs at the bottom of the screen, they got referred to as buttons instead of tabs.
So I called apple to see if they would help me with identifying what each of those were so that I could use the element labeler in vo to label them.
Well, the rep that I got did indeed help me with that, and after that, I called my friend back and told him of my good experience, and he said that he probably wouldn't have that kind of luck, so we called apple together on 3way, and my friend was also able to get help, as he has the same thing I do.
So, what I think this seems to come down to, is the rep you get, my guess, is that some reps aren't interested in helping, so they just say that they can't.
Another theory, is that maybe apple does have a rule about third party app help, but maybe some reps want to help , and finally one more, maybe there are certain situations where they can help.
Until we know for sure, I'd just keep calling back until you get someone who is interested in helping, or can find out if there are certain situations that they can help with in this regard.
case numbers
@Ash Rein I wasn't given a case number, but I didn't expect one either. I've only ever been given a case number if support gives me trouble shooting steps to try and they don't work and I decide I want to call back for further help.
I would still call them and explain what you are dealing with anyway. If it's something you can easily show them, that's where asking them to do a screen share is great.
@Dominic Screen share in this case is not a screen recording. When you call support, they can send you an invite to do a screen sharing session with you. A dialog pops up on your phone and once you agree to it, the rep can see what's happening on your screen. Unlike JAWS tandem or NVDA remote though, they cannot control your device. It can better assist them to help you troubleshoot, although I've had times when it doesn't work, and sometimes it can take some time for the screen to refresh on their end, so probably not best to do things as fast as you normally do.
This is not logical
I don’t agree with this. Inflating a company with phone calls will solve nothing. Full stop. Many companies like jaws, Android, or dragon have one big difference compared to Apple: Pay wall and lack of improvements. I have used Apple all my life and can say that they are the best and do work hard to fix problems all for free. Let’s back off the entitlement and not make their jobs more difficult. Causing such a result as explained will only make things harder for them to fix. The people helping you are people too just like us. So lets be thankful for what we have and allow the people there to do their work. Mass calling them will also do nothing but cause others not to get the help they need that may use other features. Not trying to be on the offensive but I think this solution is no where near a solid way to get things done
The problem with non english languages
Hi
My name is Afik as some of you knows
When i’m calling the accessibility line, sometimes they’re unable to help because the problem is happening just with the hebrew voice.
Moreover, when emailing them its not really help, the helpful way is to call them.
Free Apple stuff.
I’d love the name of the department thats giving away free iPhones, iPads, TV’s, Laptops, desktops, headphones etc. It’s really nice of them to do all of that for free. I feel a bit silly spending many 10’s of thousands of £ only to find out I could have had it all for free if I’d only known. Until I get that departments name, I’ll not consider it entitlement to want my stuff to damn well work like it’s meant to. If many people, standing up and being counted by calling the phone number Apple supplies for that purpose using money we’ve given them is the way to get stuff working like its meant to then so be it. JAWS may have an annual fee but so does Apple and guess who’s making more money?
Re: This is not logical
Question. Why would calling a multiple trillion dollar company be problematic? The issue isn’t about taking away from other people. The issue is the accessibility “specialists” aren’t really working. They are turning voiceover off and not using it for most of the day. They are completely unaware that there are bugs. 99.9% of the time, they are absolutely surprised to find out that there are bugs. Their response to finding out is that if it was an issue, more people would be calling in about it. So, again, they are literally saying we need to call in more.
To read anyone write about the idea of entitlement as a negative thing is absolutely infuriating. I have paid this company $1500 every year just for a new phone. I am absolutely entitled to these bugs being resolved. If I could go to another platform, I would. If I could use another screen reader on iOS or Mac, I absolutely would. It is disgusting to think that we must be “grateful.” They aren’t doing me any favors. They are making money off of me. Again, I am furious that a poster would have the audacity to suggest we shouldn’t be advocating for ourselves.
Apple doesn’t support third party apps
Unfortunately, Apple doesn’t support third party apps. They only provide the tools to create the software. Apple only supports the products it makes. So first party apps like Maps, safari, notes, mail, messages, phone, calendar, reminders, App Store, etc are things we can contact Apple for. Asking Apple to provide technical support on these apps is not really something they can do. The developer of the third party app must be contacted. Yes, that is extra work, but it is important to do it if you want your favorite app to be accessible.
Re: Case numbers
They actually have to provide a case number. It would be important to provide one so that when I call, I am literally on the same page as you. At that point, I only have to back up what you already did. If I call on my own, I will have a rep that will not be as interested because they will think I am some random person calling about an issue no one else is going through.
Completely agree
It’s far too easy to bitch about how long it takes Apple to do voiceover issues. If we don’t let them know about stuff that doesn’t work, they can’t be expected to fix things.
One thing I like about Apple
iOS 17, improves accessibility issues, including fixing the focus issue from many years apples for you speech to text dictation. As you could see, that is for dictation there. That’s how bad Apple speech services are, completely skipping past some of the words I say.
Emailing them
Emailing them is also effective, if you are good at giving an appropriate level of detail about the bug you are encountering. Send a separate email for each bug reported.
The advantage of this is that where a bug persists into future updates you can submit new reports whilst forwarding the old correspondence.