Blind people may be unable to use Reddit from July

What’s wrong with Old Reddit? That’s typically what I use. It’s a little cluttered but it’s functional.

Mentioned among the 'Mastoblind' group among the fediverse:
https://a.gup.pe/u/mastoblind
, Lemmy is a decent alternative to Reddit:
https://join-lemmy.org/

If you do not wish to use a web interface/PWA, 'Lemm' for IOS & 'Jerboa' for Android are decent enough clients on the mobile side (where Jerboa seems to work better with Jieshuo over Talkback).

More details and other clients can be found here:

https://join-lemmy.org/apps/

NB. You can follow & interact with a Lemmy community, by simply following/mentioning its username.

Where is the supposed wonderful "nfb" who claim they do the most for blind people when issues like this come up? Why don't they take legal action against Reddit and twitter?

Yes this is a big issue but it's not like we're going to be shut out completely. reddit.com and old.reddit.com are still options.

Ok, new reddit is crap, it used to be alright but now... It's so clunky.

The j and k shortcuts move you to the next and previous posts, there's only one issue, nothing is read out, no title, nothing.

Then there's comments, they're under a bunch of buttons, I thought they were headings before but I could have made that up.

Yeah, these people really don't care about us and that's sad because I love reddit, it's helps me in so many ways.

I'll probably end up using old reddit until I can't anymore.

I have no idea how to make a change but it's disgusting what they're doing.

Interesting how so many in this community dont want to work together. Some say things like what’s wrong with such and such because it works even if it’s a little funky. Interesting how there isn’t a unified solution to do this/that as a unified entity. Mostly, The deaf community doesn’t have this problem. Mostly, People in wheelchairs don’t have this problem. They tend to support each other and work together no matter what the differences are. As far as I can tell, It’s just the blind community that behaves with such disparity. Some people are like let’s hammer them about how we are important and shouldn’t be ignored. Others are like if it works 60% of the way I’m happy. It’s just one extreme after the other on both ends. It gets exhausting.

You know, I work with a lot of different people. Some of those people happen to be disabled in different ways. Do you know who I find to be the most lonely and isolated? People that are blind. Do you know why? Most likely it’s because they tend to push specific ideas about how things must go without any openness to work with someone else about how things can go. This is just another example of that. A conversation that eventually goes nowhere. And while there’s a committee about differing thoughts, Reddit is going to do what it’s going to do. I don’t think anybody’s mentioned the idea of creating a petition. I don’t think anybody’s created a email template that describes our needs as blind people. I don’t think anybody’s actually suggested any meaningful action that unifies us with a common goal.

Those are interesting thoughts. I notice your solution isn’t to organise something yourself, isn’t to ask for constructive ideas either. Your solution is appears to be blaming the people who are struggling for voicing how difficult it is to struggle. Being blind makes organising significantly more difficult. It requires huge input on various platforms. Platforms BTW that are making it harder to use which is why people are complaining. I agree with you, it would be great if the solution we all leapt to was organising strategising and following through but even you aren’t doing that, I wonder why? is it perhaps because its bloody hard. Some days I’ve got a little energy and I can comment on sites I know but others I just can’t handle it let alone learning new platforms. I’m currently going through the process of going from almost no vision to absolutely no vision and thats if you’ll pardon my french. Pretty F-img knackering as it is. wheelchair users and deaf people have significant problems accessing the world, theres no doubt and I 100% support their efforts to make things better but for blind people there are extra hurdles. Maybe the reason blind people are more isolated is because being blind is bloody hard and the last thing someone in a difficult situation needs is someone else in a similar situation telling them they just need to try harder. If you’ll forgive me, that message is especially toxic when its coming from someone doing the same, complaining on a website. At least the people you complain about are complaining about the issue at hand instead of the characters of their fellow community. I definitely agree this community constantly turns on itself especially when under a feeling of loss or fear of loss but I can’t help thinking what you’re doing is exactly the thing you’re complaining that others do. A circular firing squad doesn’t help anyone. Would you like to take the lead and suggest ways to combat this? Thats a genuine invitation BTW. It would be more helpful than further shaming those who have enough shame in their lives.

I have tried repeatedly. I have posted over and over and over again for years. I have made every effort to organize and unify this and other blind communities. The nmost I've gotten is someone telling me that it doesn't affect them so it's not that important.

Its not about what I do. It is about what we do. and until there is a WE, there will be a I and Me mindset. That is why I work on my own to advocate. Unfortunately, I am one voice. There might be others that advocate as well. However, its generally a handful of people. What is needed is a majority helping us. And the majority is too fragmented and resistant to work together right now.

You’ve got 1 person on side already. Me, Let’s do this. Others can join when they would like. Let’s organise and do something that matters and truly makes peoples lives better. Once we get some momentum, others will join. Should we connect outside applevis?

It takes a lot of work to get noticed. Essentially, a person has to be relentless to get any notice and have changes made. I don't just email accessibility@apple.com, I call. I don't just call, I rinse and repeat multiple times a week. I make it so that oeveryone knows who I am. Getting things fixed and improved sometimes means annoying the hell out of developers and companies. And that is just me. Imagine if 30, 50, 100 people did that. I wonder what the response would be.

Its not frustrating to not get a response. It's frustrating to talk to a developer, engineer, etc and hear that no one else has reached out about it. That there is no record or case of anyone else emailing or calling about it.

I am open to working collaboratively. How do I provide my contact information? Is it possible?

I partially agree. What's needed is for the NFB and ACB to come back together and advocate as one. I think that'd go a long way. Sure there have been instances where they've worked together for something, and that's great. But what I'm saying is that this sense of togetherness among those 2 organizations needs to continue. Universal access is too important to be ignored like this. To that end, I'd like to offer up one more alternative. That alternative is Dreamwidth, which is where I've have hosted a blog since 2014. They call them journals, but I think you get my point. Dreamwidth is at least for me, 100% accessible with speech provided by VoiceOver. I hope to find out soon how it performs with a Braille display, but my senses tell me that it works well there too. The platform has a responsive design, and accessibility is widely discussed on there. At least 2 of the devs formerly worked at Live Journal, which I'm told isn't/wasn't that accessible for screen reader users. I'm pretty sure this was the impetus for starting Dreamwidth, and if more people throughout the blindness community could show them some love I think it'd be greatly appreciated. It's a bit like Wordpress in some aspects. Anyone on this thread can feel free to head over to my website and have a look. There's a link in my profile on here. Having said all that, the fediverse also appears to be a good alternative.

I can’t believe this is happening. This is BS through and through, leaving the blind community out like this I don’t know but it needs to stop now

I hate this.

Many a word has been written on this page about how Reddit's two websites (old and new) and its official apps cannot be used by most blind people, but "most" is not quantified, nor is any other evidence provided for these at the very least dubious claims. How many people with visual impairments access Reddit on average every month? Of these, how many access the service through the old Reddit website? The new Reddit website? The official mobile apps? A third party app? Another method not documented here? What percentage of visually impaired individuals that access Reddit at least once per month find any of its offerings to be so unusable that they either need to use a different official offering or a third-party app? See where I'm going here?

Before writing a post exclaiming blind people are doomed because Reddit is changing their policies to push people towards their native offerings that one claims to be inaccessible, it might be wise to actually collect hard, fact-based numbers and evidence to prove the points outlined. With so many officially-sanctioned ways to access the service, I daresay visually impaired people will do just fine once Reddit's changes are implemented. If they want to use the service so badly, they'll find a way to do so.

It's OK to educate visually impaired users about the upcoming changes and what their options will be moving forward, but to make blanket statements about the accessibility of, or even the preferences by visually impaired users towards Reddit's offerings or towards a particular offering without factual evidence is misleading at best, and misinformation at worst.

Instead, simply let people know of the upcoming changes and allow them to decide for themselves which Reddit offering, if any, they wish to use. Allow them to contact Reddit should they so choose. Allow them to continue using a method of access, such as the new Reddit, that works for them, rather than stirring up fear, panic, or other emotions by insisting that only third party clients are the correct, best, or most accessible way to use Reddit, or that a substantial number of blind people (a number that is actually unsubstantiated) will be left out in the cold when the new Reddit API policy changes go into effect because some individuals claim the official offerings are inaccessible.

To summarize, it does nobody any good to state that "Old Reddit, New Reddit and Reddit’s iOS app have significant accessibility and/or usability deficiencies for screen reader users" without providing actual factual evidence that these deficiencies, which I am sure exist in some fashion, actually affect enough users to warrant such an outcry. Most visually impaired Reddit users are not moderators of communities, most may not even access the service regularly, and most could do just fine with a notification of Reddit's upcoming changes and a call to contact Reddit and advocate for the visually impaired community, should the user choose to do so. Reddit, like all technology companies, certainly should work to make their official offerings accessible, especially if they are going to deny usage of third-party clients, but the fact that these third-party clients are going away does not automatically make the official offerings unusable by the visually impaired community in all contexts or circumstances, nor does it mean that the accessibility deficiencies of the official offerings are massive on a scale large enough to affect every visually impaired user. Rather, it simply means that those who previously used third party clients may need to contend with using Reddit's official offerings to access the service, and while they may not be perfect it is only up to the individual user to decide for themselves the accessibility issues the offerings have and what they are willing or unwilling to tolerate.

While it works on the web site, it could certainly be a better experience, I.e, no headings for different posts, when using the j and k keys to go from post to post the title and some info doesn't get read... It works yes, but it could be way better than it is in accessibility. Oh yeah, and at times voiceover gets stuck and you have to scroll up or down to be able to continue reading as voiceover makes the dong it does when your at the end of content, when your really not. Its usable yes, but its... not a good experience comparing it to what it could be.

i dont use reddit.
facebook is more interesting and has the accessabilaty that i need.
sure it may not be the best but it survs me whell.

I've shown you evidents on this page.

Reddit.com is just clunky. J and k work sometimes, and when they do they just say section section section. Other times they don't, perhaps they move but I don't know about it.

i'm trying teddit but you can't seam to log in there.

@Brad, the reason why it's saying section section section is because you're trying to use focus mode.

What you need to do is turn off single navigation keys with NVDA plus shift plus space.

For jaws users, I think it's incert plus Z to turn off the virtual cursor.

Those are the only screen readers I know about.

The only thing I haven't figured out on the reddit site is how to leave or delete chats.

Most things, I can muddle my way through.

It's not perfect, but for me, it's usible.

In fact, I started out using Reddit using the website, new Reddit, hardly touched Old Reddit, no point if it's eventually going away.

If anyone knows how to leave chats I'd appreciate it, because the only thing I was able to do using the iOS app, was, you guessed it, use it to leave a chat I somehow got myself into.

SO it works, cool! But I'm not a fan of how it reads out stuff but I can just use h.

reading comments has become a lot easier with j and k. It's a bit wordy but you know what? It works.

On old reddit you can just press a button, I think it's leave/close chat or something.

Thanks so much for the help.

That's all well and good, but I would not rely on old reddit.

Eventually that's going to go away as well.

It's only a matter of time.

TO exit a chat on reddit, you find the chat and click on it like you're going to write a response, there's a button that isn't labeled, click on that and you'll see some options, you're looking for hide chat, press enter on it and the chat should be gone.

Oh btw, I'm not relying on old reddit, I might use it from time to time but will be using reddit a lot more.

Hide chat will just hide it won't it?

It's like when you archive messages on facebook messenger and whatsapp.

When you receive new messages, they'll just reappear.

i've even done a little research and there doesn't seam to be a way to completely leave the chat. There's a legacy chat button but it doesn't always show up for me, perhaps if you click that it'll show your chats and an option to leave them?

I just tried old reddit with the same results, it's odd because in dystopia you're able to leave chats with no issues.

I didn't know how to handle comments but i've figured out that if you press enter it closes them. It's a bit hard to find the comments to open them again but it's doable.

To TJT 2001, the only statements you can make with any authority is that Reddit and its offerings do not meet the WCAG. However, this hardly makes it unusable to even a small percentage of the visually impaired community, a percentage you admit yourself you do not know).

Just because a site does not meet all of the WCAG does not mean it's completely inaccessible for all or even some, or that it cannot be used reliably by all or even some, and it certainly doesn't warrant the claim that none of Reddit will be usable or desired by visually impaired users after third party access goes away.

A better way to go about all of this would have been to let users know of Reddit's planned changes, and to state that some users (but not all) may have difficulty when using Reddit's official offerings (though such offerings are not completely inaccessible) because they do not meet all of the WCAG. Then users can decide for themselves how they wish to move forward with the knowledge that they will be limited to the service's official offerings due to third party client access going away.

And for the record, I am in favor of Reddit's proposed changes, just as I was when Twitter changed their policies regarding third party apps. After all, they are a business and have the right to make whatever decisions they feel are necessary to support their bottom line (since they do need to make money), and getting everyone using the same interfaces will allow them to release security fixes, bug fixes, updates, and enhancements even faster, and perhaps even motivate them to improve their accessibility as well now that they know everyone is using the same set of official service offerings. If an official Reddit interface (like the new website) is not accessible to a visually impaired individual, and they feel that none of the other official offerings are accessible either, and furthermore the company is not responsive to requests for change, then that individual is certainly welcome to use another service if they so choose; Reddit is not the only platform out there.

To summarize, Reddit certainly does not meet all of the WCAG but this by no means indicates significant inaccessibility to all or even some users; it merely means there will be accessibility issues and there is room for improvement on Reddit's part. It also doesn't serve as the sole reason why visually impaired individuals use third party apps, and I dare say these individuals could probably learn to use the official offerings if they wanted to, had to, or really needed to use the service that badly; if not, they can move on to another platform.

Remember - blind people, just like sighted people and contrary to your statements, actually do have a decision they can make come July, and that decision is to continue to use Reddit despite third party applications no longer being usable, or to move to another platform. Reddit may not meet all of the WCAG but that does not mean by a long shot that blind people are left out in the cold with a platform that is completely unusable, so the choice they have is no different than anyone else.

It wouldn’t be a great career move. You do know they aren’t going to give you anything for taking their side right? Always blows my mind to see people going to extreme lengths while being obnoxious simply to argue against whats good for them and their own community.

We're both allowed to have our opinions on what's good for the blindness community. You may think that Reddit's moves are unfortunate, but the fact of the matter is that people who are visually impaired can and indeed do use Reddit's official offerings, whether they be the old Reddit site, the new one, or their official mobile apps. The accessibility may not be perfect, but obviously blind people are using the platform because none of the service's offerings are 100% inaccessible.

And if anything, the planned removal of third party apps and the subsequent requirement for everyone to be using official offerings means that Reddit will have more of an incentive to improve the accessibility of said offerings. Right now, everyone is fragmented across official and third-party interfaces (like a third-party app or the new Reddit website), and so the company doesn't really have an incentive to improve accessibility of it's own offerings because a third-party developer could come along and create an accessible solution themselves.

At the end of the day, though, you're not the one running Reddit, and neither am I. But I do know that Reddit is first and foremost a for-profit business, which means their bottom line comes first. If the planned changes that have everyone in an uproar (an overblown uproar, I might add) are what Reddit believes will improve their bottom line, then they have every right to implement them as they see fit. If end users don't like the changes, they can (and should) provide constructive feedback to Reddit and optionally choose to use another platform, but it's more likely most will just learn to deal with them. As said, none of Reddit's offerings are 100% inaccessible, and while all of them have their flaws, some of them glaring, they can still be used especially by people who really are set on continuing to use the service. It might take a bit of learning, a bit of work, but we could all use more of that anyways and it won't hurt people to become further skilled in working with their technology.

And for the record - while I do develop accessible web applications and have been a professional web developer and system and network administrator for over 10 years (working for such organizations as one of the top 25 universities in the United States), I currently have no plans to advocate for the community of which I am a part, especially when that community gets upset at the slightest change in a service they love (Reddit), or constantly harps on about perceived issues in a company's software (Apple) to the point where they claim the software is completely unusable (even though I dare say 80% of them have no idea how the software development and maintenance lifecycle works), or comes after users who simply agree with proposed changes by a company (again Reddit) that just wants to keep their own users on their own platform. As stated previously, if Reddit wants to require all users to use official means of accessing the service, they have the right to do so, and my only hope is that doing so will spur them to make said platforms more accessible now that they will be the only way for visually impaired users to access the service. I'm going to guess that Reddit's decision to raise prices for third-party API access is because they want to find a better way to monetize their service, and what better way to do so thatn move users off of third-party apps (that might hide Reddit's ads and other monetization tactic from them) and onto a platform Reddit can control.

Oh and one more thing - my username is "neosonic2", not "neosonic" (and with no capital letters). You would benefit greatly from targeting the right person in the future, I'm sure.

Would I prefer to use third party clients? Yes, have I written to subs about the blackout? Yes. Do I hope something comes of it, yes. Having said all that, I can use the reddit website even if it is clunky.

Reddit obviously wants to make money as a business and I get that; I might even pay monthly for no adds.

It's not all doomb and gloom people.

Yes I'll miss being lazy and checking reddit at 3 in the morning but you know what? I've got youtube and will just have to get over it if nothing changes.

I think that this sense of entitlement we have is keeping us back. Remember people we are entitled to nothing, no one is. there is no legal obligation whatsoever for companies to make their applications or websites accessible to blind people as far as I know. so, as things stand, we are reliant on each developers sense of humanity, our politeness, and the knowledge of our position to ask for accessibility in any such product.
I must say however, that I think that the comment to Andy about your user name was inappropriate. especially since voiceover does not announce capitals and we all have a vision disability after all.
Please don’t fall on me for the first part of this comment, not that I care if anyone does, but I would prefer constructive criticism.

@Brad, what I do is open each post in its own tab or window, that way you can close them easily when you're done with them.

I set mine up so when I press enter it automatically opens posts in a new tab, but I'll need to revisit the preferences to remember how I did it because I don't remember off the top of my head how it's done.

I browse on my desktop using NVDA, never did get use to browsing on the phone.

If accurately transcribed usernames is important then I hope you’ll be adequately placated and please accept my apologies for any offence caused. Look, you clearly have a lot going on and I don’t want to add to your struggles in life by challenging ideologies. It’s just not worth it but I think I can say with some confidence that I am not the first person to find you abrasive and obnoxious. That might be something you’d want to work on but you might be very happy with things the way they are. Your choice. For myself however, I’m very happy there are now and throughout history people working to advocate for the rights of excluded minorities even when it goes against making all the money. I dare say our community would be in a very different state, excluded from even more than we currently are without the work of those people trying to level the playing field and allow human rights to trump corporate rights religious rights and right wing ideologies. The world is in my humble opinion a far better place now many groups have more rights and access than they once did. I very much hope those people carry on their great work.

Thanks for the info. i'm fine with reddit the way it is now even if it is a bit clunky.

First, this is slightly off-topic but someone mentioned above that VoiceOver users shouldn't be held to the same standards as the sighted world (or perhaps other screen reader users?) if they happen to misspell someone's username. So I figured it would be prudent to remind everyone that VoiceOver does offer the option to read words character by character, thus there is no excuse for spelling someone's username, name, etc. incorrectly. Even though it takes a few more seconds, I make it a point with every name or username or other bit of important information I come across to ensure I read the entity by character so as to ensure I am spelling it correctly in future communications. This can also of course go a long way to helping improve the spelling, punctuation, and grammatical accuracy of things individuals type out on the Internet as well.

To deliberately read text by character using VoiceOver on macOS, first interact with a text string, and then press VO+Shift+Left Arrow to move one character to the left, or VO+Shift+Right Arrow to move one character to the right across the string, remembering that the "VO" acronym here represents the VoiceOver modifier keys. To read text by character on iOS, use the rotor to switch to the "Characters" option and then swipe up or down on the display. For more assistance, see https://support.apple.com/guide/voiceover/read-text-vo2706/mac#:~:text=Press%20VO%2DC.,Right%20Arrow%20or%20Left%20Arrow..

Regarding Reddit, my final comment on this subject is for them to please move forward as quickly as possible with the demise of third-party app support, as perhaps this will mean they will finally work on addressing the accessibility of their official offerings. Third-party apps at worst represent an excuse Reddit could use against the visually impaired as to why there continue to be accessibility issues in their official user interfaces, but with them gone Reddit will (hopefully) begin the work needed to fix some of the accessibility-related bugs in their new website and mobile applications. And if they don't, then users can provide feedback and remind the company that the official offerings are now the only way they have to access the service. Should Reddit not want to lose users (again, they are a business and more users means more ad revenue, more monetization, and thus more money earned), then they would do well to improve the interfaces everyone will soon be using.

I never use Reddit. I've heard of it, but I don't really understand what it is. It therefore doesn't affect me one way or another what happens to it in July except, I suppose, if one day I discover Reddit and think I might rather like to use it.

and it's that last 'except' part of the above paragraph that has motivated me to write about this. i can understand why people might be upset about changes to Reddit. If it's a service you enjoy and you feel you might struggle to use from July, if it helps you connect with the world and and that sort of thing, it's fair enough to be upset and angry at the prospect of having that taken away. A bit like those who use the Stream for their Audible books - I can live with the IOS app but I have a huge amount of sympathy with those who prefer using a bespoke book player. I don't agree with neosonic2 to the extent that evidence is qualitative as welll as quantitative. You have lots of evidence of dissatisfaction in this post. Sure, the weight you might choose to ascribe to some of that evidence (more on that below) might be questionable, but it's still evidence. besides, if one day I choose to join Reddit but find it's not accessible I might decide simply to forget it. Reddit will miss out on my custom; but it might leave no evidential footprint. yet it's still an issue - trying to make one's environment inclusive to as many as possible. it cannot always be said that the absence of evidence for a problem is evidence of that problem's absence.

Where I completely agree with neosonic2, however, is on intolerance: this thread has oozed vitreol, intolerance and a sense of entitlement. why on earth would i want to get involved with advocacy like that? Why, if I were on the receiving end of it, or if I took a sneak peak at this thread, would I bother listening to it? I happen to be of the opinion that twitter, Reddit and so forth are entitled to do what they are doing and I would encourage them to take accessibility more seriously having done it. If you look at the various discussions about Sky accessibility here in the UK you'll see that aproach can be very productive. but even if I were of the contrary opinion, I wouldn't be hanging, drawing and quartering neosonic2 as a traitor to the so'-called 'blind community'. Can't you chaps make your good points about reddit in a reasonable way? Can't you avoid playing blindness off against other disabilities - the oservation that we face more hurdles than a wheelchair user is ridiculous, for example? if getting together and unifying behind one view means that we'll pillary you if you don't happen to subscribe to that view, I'm better off out of it and will advocate in mi' own way.

I hope you chaps get the Reddit issues resolved. But you'd do better to drop the unionising, militant narrative. at the moment t sounds too much like: we're a tolerant bunc unless we don't agree with what you say.

What bothers me most of all is that people will say something like it’s not important to me because I either use it this way or I don’t use the system at all. Then why would you post about this? On a feed focused on people wanting to grieve the changes that are being made and what they might do to resolve it? What is the point of it?

A lot of times people say things like it doesn’t bother me. I don’t care I don’t use it or I won’t use it in certain ways because they are terrified and they’re just trying to avoid pain. And unfortunately it doesn’t help the ones that are actually trying to face it. I read about somebody saying that they still have YouTube. The whole point of this kind of post is to try to be proactive so that an application like Reddit can eventually become more accessible. And, a company like alphabet can have greater incentive anbout maintaining accessibility for their apps. Instead of going the same way and making them less accessible. This is generally why I stay away from the blind community. Its generally why I work alone. Because there’s so little empathy.

It doesn't matter to me if a person is a web developer, an IT specialist, or flipping burgers. I have not once discussed what I do for a living. I could have a massive background in Information technology or I could be a CEO just trying to figure out how people in the blind community interact. I could have no job or one of the best jobs in the world. And I'll never say what I do for a living because it's not relevant. It has nothing to do with saying something like guys. I understand how difficult this is. I can appreciate how important using a platform like this can be. I wonder if I can be helpful in someway. Instead we get it doesn't bother me. We get deflections like I need you to spell my name right. We get. Shaming and pacification and defensiveness. And then, instead of it becoming about how to help each other resolve an issue,, how to organize and work together, it turned into how somebody's wrong for posting their thoughts, or how somebody's right for posting their thoughts, or who they agree with, and who they disagree with.

By the way, we had a completely accessible application for Reddit. It is called Apollo. This person made the app completely accessible for everybody. And then they just posted how Reddit is unreasonably charging now and how it's going to be impossible for them to sustain the application because of the cost. So the one fully accessible application is going away. And it wasn't even 100% focused on just voiceover users. It was focused on everybody. And Apollo has been huge. At least over the past year and a half or so. And for it to go away is not a great sign that a bigger company like Reddit is suddenly going to decide that they're going to make their app or website more accessible.

So here's a question? How does I just won't use it solve the problem? The whole point is for everything to be as accessible as possible. At some point you're only gonna be using maybe two websites that still remain accessible. because one by one things domino, and trend one way or the other way. there is no in between.

While I’m not sure accessibility goes absolutely one way or the other I definitely agree it trends in one way or the other and the trend at present is toward less accessible which isn’t good when accessibility is just a word that means you get a place in the world we’re building or you don’t. It’s the fear of not getting a place that makes this such an emotionally difficult thing to discuss rationally. I don’t use it so no worries might be fine for the individual but across a population its going to be less of a successful model. I’d like for accessibility to start trending back in the direction it was which is becoming more the norm and expected rather than something that has to be fought for with each individual company. The example of Sky was a success story however if regulation made reasonable access for all the norm then that wouldn’t have ever been a problem. I believe humans have a right to an equal playing field which is in opposition to businesses who think they have the right to maximise profit at any cost. I do get emotional when people are standing up for the rights of a business over rights of humans and I’ll stand by that. The word entitled has become an interesting word hasn’t it? I can’t help thinking it means different things to different people. I think I should be able to get in a taxi with my guide dog even if there are religious beliefs in conflict with me travelling with a dog, does that make me entitled? Maybe. Thats reasonable entitlement though isn’t it? If I can’t then how do I move around the world? I believe I should be able to use a website or service, is that entitled? maybe but without that right you can be sure some businesses will decide they can save a little money by not designing that in. Now I’m excluded from that part of life too. It’s not surprising people get emotional on both sides of this argument. The tolerance paradox plays in here too. I think tolerance extends to everyone trying to make a better world for everyone and stops at those trying to degrade what we all have and call reality, is that intolerant? perhaps but how do we build a functioning system around tolerating vandalism, violence extremism etc. I personally think we can’t so tolerance has to be discriminatory in order for things to work. Someone could have a different opinion and say we should tolerate everyone all the time no matter what they do but I don’t see how that works. If someone is arguing a business can do whatever it wants in order to maximise profit, do I tollerate that? It’s a genuine question with no definite answer but my feeling is its not a great ideology because what happens when the reality is everyone realises they can make the most money by excluding everyone who might need anything more than what the most profitable customer needs. This is all really difficult stuff to discuss. Every minority group feels under threat, some are and some aren’t but what seems safe to say is that the ones who stand up for their rights and ask to be seen are the ones who will emerge with more rights and more ability to be a part of whatever tomorrow is. It’s a difficult time with lots of divisiveness which I’m pretty sure is being encouraged by media, its an easy way to get clicks and attention but some sense is going to have to come out the other end.

I think the point is being missed. No one's calling anybody a traitor. Ultimately the question is if it doesn't affect you, why post anything? This is not just about Reddit. It's about people grieving loss of accessibility. It's cathartic to interact with those who can empathize. To suddenly get a post saying it doesn't affect them or that they don't worry about it or they're not thinking about it takes away from that catharsis. It takes away from the ones who want to organize and work together to advocate. Because it's literally coming in and sticking a needle in that balloon. The ones that tend to be toxic are the ones who focus on everything besides the actual topic. It's like talking about climate change and how the air quality is so poor that people have to stay inside. And then somebody coming in and saying they think they wanna die their hair.

I definitely didn’t want to compare the difficulties one faces over another. I hope it didn’t come across that way, I don’t think it did but wanted to clarify that wasn’t my intention. I stand by what I said though. If the task was navigating through a rocky path then definitely a blind person might face less challenges but the reality is the world is a very visual place. Before I lost the last of my sight I would always downplay how much it affected every area of life but losing that last tiny bit made me face the reality. It really is a challenge. On the whole the disability the general public seem to fear most is losing their eyesight. Its so fundamental to everything a living organism does and yes there are many many coping strategies but non of them compensate completely.

Ash Rein, as to why post, I would simply say that I don't owe anyone an explanation as to why I post. I don't have to justify why I post. Surely you would allow me that? as it is, I posted because I wanted to show that I understood the point that you were making but that I don't generally get involved in advocacy of this sort because of the tone evidenced on this thread, which I see too often for my liking. To that tend, i actually thought my second paragraph was very empathetic. Did you read that second paragraph? with respect, you seem to have fastened on the first couple of sentences as providing enough rope to hang Bingo.

Andy, I'm not advocating moral relativism. i'm not arguing that we should tolerate everything; but I thought the opinion of neosonic2 was a perfectly reasonable one and, the way I read it, was not responded to in a very tolerant way. Of course toleration presupposes that we think something is wrong - I can't tolerate something unless I first reach the view that I think it is wrong.

Entitlement can serve two masters - the good and the bad. rights are used in the same way. One can use entitlement aggressively and progressively, in the same way one can assert rights aggressively and progressively. The guide dogs examples etc. are all fair enough in their own right, but that's not the only way people talk of entitlement. I can insist that I am entitled to a spa treatment in an hotel whose spa is closed. i can brandish that entitlement in the face of the very polite staff member who's trying to explain to me that it's closed for a very good reason. Contractually, I am so entitled. some might say that's reasonable. Others might say I'm entitled to insist on a recduction because the spa's closed. Perhaps i am, but would they be so sympathetic to my entitlement to a reduction if the hotel really struggled during lockdown and is trying to get back on its feet? All these terms have associated difficulties. I don't think that by saying what I said about the thread oozing an attitude of entitlement I sent any message about entitlement in a completely different context like the guide dog.

Finally on disabilities, Andy, i appreciate the clarification and take it in the spirit it was intended. And to be fair to you, you did preface it with remarks to a similar effect - though not quite the same effect.
Could you have made the same, perfectly valid, point without bringing other disabilities into it at all? I think you probably could have, in the same way that others could make their point about Reddit without a sideswipe or two at our sighted colleagues who, after all, can't help being sighted.

Reddit will exempt accessibility-focused apps from its unpopular API pricing changes

https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/7/23752804/reddit-exempt-accessibility-apps-api-pricing-changes

According to The Verge, Reddit will exempt accessibility-focused apps from its unpopular API pricing changes: https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/7/23752804/reddit-exempt-accessibility-apps-api-pricing-changes

r/blind will be delighted. I was on a call with them at the weekend and they were very concerned about how they were going to moderate their sub and if they’d have anything to moderate. I don’t think we’ve heard the end of this though. I’m guessing this was to try and quell the backlash but its far bigger than accessibility. People seem to sincerely believe this is simply to pump their valuation prior to going public and although it is a platform that a company owns, the entirety of its content is user generated and the feeling seems to be why should a business be allowed to excessively profit from what the community has built often in spite of the best efforts of the company itself. Let’s see what happens now. I very much appreciate that accessibility has been removed from the battle lines already.

I don’t remember who, but someone once told me that “my liberty ends where your liberty begins.” It may not be a profound philosophy, but it’s a good starting point.
My point is that understanding and respecting the rights of the other party could be more important than knowing your own rights. It’s also crucial to be aware of your starting position when negotiating an issue. In this case, correct me if I’m wrong, there is no obligation for developers to make their products accessible.

Do I like it? No. Would I prefer every application in the universe to be accessible to everyone? Yes. Do I feel frustrated when I have to download each app from the App Store just to check its accessibility? Absolutely.

What can I do about it, though? How can I persuade someone to dedicate their time and effort to help me when I have nothing to offer in return, and they have no legal obligation whatsoever to do so? Doesn’t this person have the right to prioritize activities that are profitable for them, considering their livelihood depends on it? Don’t they have the right to decline something that will require time and effort without any return?

Of course, the answer is yes. A person has both of the above rights. No one has the right to make another person their slave.
So, what do we do in the end? I’ll tell you later. What I will do first, is to share with you, my experience when I desperately wanted a specific application to be accessible.
I told the truth. I contacted the developer and explained that I am blind as a cave spider and that I would genuinely like to use his application. I made it clear that I was not demanding anything, but kindly requesting his assistance. I also acknowledged that I had no legal grounds for my request and that it would only be valid if he had the time and willingness to help me.
Guess what? He did it. The developer made his application usable. It took him two weeks and quite a bit of reading, but he achieved it. However, let’s not deceive ourselves. This kind person, neither expected. nor got anything in return. His app was mainstream, and he was not dependent on the blind community for his success. He did it simply because he is a compassionate human being, and objectively speaking, he is the worst for where.
So, if someone is serious about blind advocacy, it’s better to reach out to lawmakers rather than developers, no matter how big they may be and how many resources they might have at their disposal. After all, it’s not easy to decide which companies should be legally obligated to spend a portion of their earnings to make their product accessible to all.
Otherwise, if you want to engage individual developers that is, be polite, be reasonable, and be aware of your legal and moral limits.
After all, no one appreciates demands, tantrums, yelling, or publicly shaming others. While these tactics may accomplish short-term goals, they could cause long-term damage to the blind community.