Intro
Since 2005, I have used a variety of Macs, and have regularly used every version of macOS from Tiger to Monterey since then. Over that time, I’ve witnessed the various changes to VoiceOver, both major and minor, as well as how VoiceOver on macOS helped usher in a whole new world of mobile accessibility on iOS and iPadOS.
Today, with the Mac’s transition to Apple Silicon and the performance potential that it’s helped to unleash, it can be argued that the Mac is experiencing something of a renaissance. Indeed, as an AppleVis member, I’ve noticed an uptick in posts related to macOS, including from those who are potentially interested in buying their first Mac, those enquiring about how to complete various tasks on macOS, those experiencing issues, and others. No, I don’t have a hard number to back that up, just my observation.
As more blind and low vision people consider whether or not a Mac is right for them, the common discourse may lead them to one of two conclusions, either that macOS is great and people who discuss bugs they’ve experienced or Apple’s failure to address them are “Whining” and “being negative,” or that Apple doesn’t care at all about VoiceOver on macOS, and thus the accessibility of the platform is hopelessly destined to decay. As a totally blind long-time Mac user, I hope to provide a more nuanced perspective to this debate. In saying this, it should be noted that the things mentioned in this post are my opinions based on my use case, as well as my observations of other users’ reported experiences. Personally, I don’t unquestioningly love or hate any platform, and think all have their strengths, weaknesses, and appropriate places.
Finally, I must stress that the observations and opinions in this post are a snapshot in time. If you come upon this post in the future, you may want to post a comment or perform additional research to assess the current state of something referenced in this post that you’re particularly concerned about.
My use case
When someone is evaluating whether a given technology product is right for them, it is important for them to consider their individual use case and base their research on what users in similar situations report. Similarly, as the author of this post, I feel it is important for me to describe my use case now, so as to give relevant context to my perspective.
I am a totally blind user of VoiceOver on macOS and iOS, and NVDA on Windows. I use these platforms exclusively with speech, so can’t comment on the quality or usability of braille support on any of them. The standard tasks I use my devices for are primarily personal, email, web browsing, communication, occasional social media use, and light word processing. In fact, this post is being written using Pages on macOS and posted to AppleVis using Safari.
I have a 2018 MacBook Air with macOS Monterey 12.4, the latest stable version of the operating system at the time of posting. While I have no direct experience with Macs with Apple Silicon, my takeaway from other users is that, while the chip makes it incredibly fast, the experience is still held back somewhat by VoiceOver being, well, VoiceOver.
What I like about macOS
Integration with the Apple ecosystem
It almost goes without saying that one of the advantages of an Apple product is integration with other Apple products, meaning, for example, if you own an iPhone or iPad and like it, the experience can likely be made even better with a Mac. Personally, if I’m working on my Mac, I love being able to make and receive calls and texts directly from it, rather than having to pull my iPhone out of my pocket. Likewise if I’m browsing a webpage on my iPhone that I want to pick up on my Mac, I can simply press Command-Tab on my Mac’s keyboard to locate the open Safari instance on my iPhone, and it will be handed off to my Mac.
Finally, Apple’s cross-device integration features allow me to store and sync documents, notes, reminders, account credentials, and TOTP-based two-step verification codes, among other things between my devices. If I, for example, had an iPhone and a Windows PC, I would likely need several third-party apps to achieve a similar level of integration, and even then, certain features like iMessage, AirDrop, and handoff would not be possible.
More straightforward settings
While macOS might not necessarily be as customizable as Windows, I find that for my use case, the settings I like to change are much easier to locate and understand. This is largely explained by the fact that on the system level, most macOS settings are located in one app, System Preferences, whereas on Windows, some settings are only available in the Settings app, others are only available in Control Panel, and still others are available in both places. While Windows 11 has made progress on improving the organization and overall utility of the Settings app, I feel it still has a ways to go to reach parity with System Preferences on macOS.
In addition, when changing a setting on macOS to something other than what is recommended, Apple doesn’t constantly take the opportunity to advertise its own products by asking me to change it back. For example, if I wanted to use Google Chrome instead of Safari, macOS wouldn’t regularly pester me to revert back to Safari or use a different search engine than the one I chose.
Another instance of customization where macOS outshines Windows in my opinion is privacy settings. On Windows, there are a number of different pages containing numerous confusingly worded settings, whereas on macOS, similar to iOS and iPadOS, you can easily get a full accounting of what apps have access to what types of data, with an easy way to revoke access or opt out of personalization features.
Lack of bloatware
While Apple users may take the lack of software from other companies or ads in the core of the operating system for granted, this is not the case for much of the competition. If you buy a Windows PC, even one that is not cheap, it will often come with third-party software that doesn’t serve much of a purpose unless you pays separately for a subscription or full license. Adding to that, it may not always be obvious which apps from the PC’s manufacturer are essential to the system, and what can be safely removed.
On macOS, Apple’s bundled apps that are not part of the operating system, like iMovie and GarageBand, can be safely and easily removed if you don’t have a use for them. In addition, as updates to macOS and system firmware are handled by Apple, they can be completed in one fully accessible preference pane, often at one time in one package. This is in contrast to the utilities provided by PC manufacturers to update drivers and firmware, which are often poorly designed and not particularly accessible with screenreaders.
System stability and ease of troubleshooting
Another advantage of the hardware and operating system coming from the same company is the increased overall stability of the system.
On Windows, cryptic error messages, system crashes, and complications during updates that necessitate reinstallation of the operating system are not uncommon. While macOS is far from immune to these types of issues, I’ve experienced far fewer of them in the same amount of time, and when issues do occur, I find the process of troubleshooting easier. For issues that prevent my Mac from starting, I can attempt to start up in the mostly accessible macOS recovery partition, run first aid tests on the startup disk, and attempt to reinstall the operating system if necessary. Additionally, although it doesn’t provide any audible feedback, I can start my Mac while holding down the D key to run Apple Diagnostics, and use Seeing AI on my iPhone to read the results, which can provide valuable insight into the cause of the issue.
Furthermore, the fact that both the hardware and operating system come from the same company means that for many issues, I can likely call Apple Support and get a better experience that doesn’t involve needing to contact another company. In contrast, when attempting to diagnose such issues on Windows, I, the user, must consider a litany of possible causes, such as Windows update, a driver issue, a hardware issue, and then hypothesize whether the issue is software or hardware related, in order to decide if I should first contact Microsoft or the PC’s manufacturer for support.
Where macOS falls short
Note: When discussing ways where I feel macOS falls short, the purpose is not to cover specific or transient bugs, but rather to give an overview of issues that I view as endemic to the platform and how they could be addressed. Apple has been made aware of all these issues.
Web browsing
As said earlier, while users broadly enjoy the vast performance gains of Apple Silicon, many continue to experience slower than expected performance with VoiceOver, which can significantly detract from the appeal of a Mac for a blind or low vision user. This is particularly pronounced when browsing webpages, an essential task for many users.
This issue is perhaps most apparent when trying to brows a webpage and hearing the VoiceOver announcement that “Safari is not responding.” While the browser usually only becomes unresponsive for a few seconds at a time, the performance and prices of modern Macs make such an issue, and the amount of time it’s existed, unacceptable. Specifically, it has been present since the release of Safari 15 in September 2021, and has possibly existed in some form even before that, with so far little response from Apple. I feel confident in saying that if sighted users experienced an issue where their Macs froze for several seconds when browsing webpages, the issue would be fixed within weeks or days, rather than months or years.
In addition, when browsing webpages, many screenreader users prefer to use the arrow keys to navigate as if the webpage were a document, rather than navigate with VO-left and right arrow, allowing them to view and select text on the webpage. This functionality was added to VoiceOver with the release of OS X Yosemite in 2014, however the behavior is not always reliable. In my experience, sometimes using the arrow keys as opposed to VO-left and right arrow works as I’d expect, other times pressing the arrow keys appears to move focus to a different area of the webpage than what I was browsing, and still other times, pressing the arrow keys does nothing at all.
Consistency of grouping behavior
One thing that can be quite confusing to new Mac users is grouped navigation, VoiceOver’s default organizing of elements into groups that a user must interact with to view other elements inside them. In my opinion, while this may be useful when wanting to quickly bypass a series of related elements, the behavior is not particularly consistent in built in macOS apps.
For example, certain apps require you to interact with a scroll area or collection to view information or click a button while others don’t, certain app tables can be navigated by simply focusing on them and using the up and down arrow keys while others must be interacted with first, and certain elements require you to interact twice in order to view the desired content. While no two apps are the same, and thus complete consistency in all aspects of an app’s user interface is impossible, the wide variation in behavior from app to app, coupled with the fact that grouped navigation is a feature largely unique to VoiceOver on macOS can make the process of using macOS apps very confusing, especially for new or inexperienced users.
While it is true that the process of using different apps can be made easier over time as a user develops confidence and muscle memory, I feel that the learning curve for beginners could be reduced by implementing similar behaviors for similar types of interfaces.
Consistency of interface mechanics
With the introduction of the “Mac Catalyst” technology, developers have been given the opportunity to port their iOS and iPadOS apps to macOS in a process easier than creating an entirely separate macOS app. However, VoiceOver’s divergent behavior in these apps relative to apps developed with the traditional “AppKit” technology has the potential to confuse users. For example, in Mac Catalyst apps, the Actions menu is more heavily utilized than those developed with AppKit. In addition, unlike in AppKit apps, where you can simply focus on a text field and start typing, you must first press VO-Space on text fields in Mac Catalyst apps in order to start editing.
In my opinion, both frameworks include behaviors that users may find desirable. For example, if the Mac Catalyst style Actions menus in macOS apps contained the same or similar types of actions as their iOS equivalents, it may give users an increased sense of comfort and familiarity with macOS as a whole. In this model, similar to iOS and iPadOS apps, the purpose of the actions menu would be to enable VoiceOver users to accomplish tasks that sighted users would accomplish by swiping on or hovering over an element, whereas the contextual menus would contain a greater variety of options, similar to the behavior of the one-finger triple-tap on iOS and iPadOS. However, I feel the behavior of text fields in AppKit apps is more intuitive, as it does not require an extra keystroke to type or interact with text.
VoiceOver information commands
One convenient feature of Windows screenreaders is the inclusion of commands to announce the time and battery status without needing to navigate to the location of the specific element. For example, to check the time or battery status using NVDA on Windows, you could either press Windows-B to access the notification area and use the left and right arrow keys to find the information, or simply press NVDA-f12 to hear the time, or NVDA-Shift-B to hear the battery status. To get the same information using VoiceOver on macOS, you must press VO-M twice to access menu extras, then use VO-left and right arrow to find the information; an additional keystroke is then required to exit the menu extras and return to your original task.
Alternatively, you could use keyboard commander to map custom commands to scripts that report information using system speech, but there is a slight delay between issuing the command and the information being spoken. Furthermore, as this method uses system speech rather than VoiceOver directly, braille users cannot access this information. Currently, VO-f12 and VO-Shift-B are not in use by VoiceOver, so I’d imagine it would not be difficult for Apple to add this functionality to VoiceOver using those key combinations or others.
VoiceOver announcements
Part of what makes a screenreader desirable to use is how clearly and concisely it reports information about the system to a user. Currently, there are a number of VoiceOver announcements that are either repetitive or do not meaningfully convey the intended information. Examples of these announcements include:
- When a Mac goes to sleep, VoiceOver may announce “Application, Application, Application” or “Authentication is not responding.” A more meaningful announcement could be something like “Entered system sleep” or the VoiceOver sound that indicates the locking of an iOS device's screen.
- When sending a message in the Messages app, VoiceOver will announce “Delete [message content].” A more helpful announcement could be something like “Sent message.”
- When cutting text, VoiceOver will announce “Delete [text].” A more helpful announcement could be something like “[Text] cut.”
Conclusion
As I’ve hopefully articulated in this post, I believe there are a number of advantages of macOS over Windows, along with a number of things that can make the Mac experience very frustrating for blind and low vision users. For my individual use case, while I find the various oddities of macOS puzzling and at times annoying, they generally don’t prevent me from being productive.
As VoiceOver is quite robust on iOS and iPadOS, the continuing transition to Apple Silicon could give Apple an opportunity to better optimize it on macOS, possibly applying what they’ve learned from developing and refining iOS and iPadOS over the years. In addition, as apps written for iPadOS can run on Macs with Apple Silicon, developers may have more potential in the future to create a wider variety of accessible apps and games for both platforms.
These are just a few of my thoughts on the potential of macOS, and what could be holding it back. In the end, only Apple and third-party developers can decide if they want to live up to that potential, and how they want to do it.
To my fellow Mac users, do the things I covered in this post match with your experiences? Are there things about the Mac experience, either positive or negative, that I missed? Sound off in the comments with any thoughts you have.
Comments
A great read
100% this ☝️
It's been more than a decade since I used Windows, so I can't comment on that side of the post, but the macOS comments matter my own experience with a similar use case.
All that I would add is that “AppName” not responding” isn't limited to Safari. I routinely experience it with a number of apps, including the Orion web browser that I've recently been using in the hope that it would save me from the “Safari not responding”.
I had hoped that moving to an M1 MacBook would at least have reduced the frequency of these announcements. It did not.
If I could have only one thing fixed in macOS 13, it would see an end to “AppName not responding”.
I love MacOS but....
Hello everybody,
I am a blind MacOS user since 2007. Also, I use Linux and WindowsX some times.
Free tip: never use the same voice for all screenreaders, You could forget where you are working 😉
Most of the day I am working on MacOS using XCode, Android studio, Visual studio code, Google docs, Safari, Google Chrome, Mail, Viena and other developer tools but sometimes I have to jump to Windows because Android studio is still not fully accessible in MacOS (see the debugging tools in Android studio) or to fill a form document in PDF format (try to fill a form in PDF in Mac, it is a nightmare). NVDA and Jaws are used by me depending on the app that I need to use.
I use Linux only for remote machines, I usually use terminal interface but sometimes I have to use Orca in Gnome.
My opinion is there is not any full accessible platform yet and we have to jump between these different options. I hope we will have more accessibility in all platforms because we need alternatives. Windows, MacOS and Linux should improve their accessibility in each new version.
MacOS is a good platform but it is not easy for newby users. I think to copy all accessibility features from iOS to MacOS is not a good solution. Apple should import only the best accessibility options of iOS to MacOS but Apple should never forget what is a Mac and what is an iOS device. I have nightmares remembering the Touchbar of my last MacBook pro.
Now I have a Macbook Pro with M1 Max and I am so happy
Regards
The voice of sanity
Thanks, Tyler, for being the voice of sanity. I share your complaints about Mac OS to the point where I've sworn I would switch back to Windows. Perhaps I remember only the good things about Windows and none of the bad. Your post has added stark perspective to the downside of such a switch.
You did a great job explaining what's going on with text fields. I've been so confounded by the behavior, I could come up with no clear way to describe it.
For some time now, I've been of the mindset that the larger, more general problem with VoiceOver on Mac is a lack of elegant design and simplicity. This has been a hallmark of Apple products going back to the Lisa. I recall TV commercials comparing an IBM PC and its stack of thick, ungainly manuals to a Macintosh and its thin user guide. The message was clear: Apple Macs are well-designed and intuitive. This doesn't seem to be the case with VoiceOver, not anymore, as demonstrated by your descriptions of reading the time and battery level. To your short list, I'll add the many controls in GarageBand that can only be set or sized by interacting with deeply nested groups until finding resize handles, then recalling and employing the complex keystrokes necessary to manipulate them accurately. It is an ugly and error-prone interface. A better solution would be a simple text field where the user could enter the desired size or other value.
Your article says what's often hard to say, and you've done it with objectivity and a diplomacy I'll never master. Thanks for the post.
VO and macOS: it's not just web browsing
Greetings. As a long-time JAWS and NVDA user, I've never been able to come to terms with some of the VoiceOver shortcomings when working with macOS. For instance, I can handle comments, footnotes, endnotes, etc., with JAWS or, via an add-on, with NVDA utilizing a couple of hot keys. But I've never been able to achieve the same efficacy with VoiceOver on macOS. It seems to me that professional/deep text-editing is much more pleasant and professional with JAWS and, to a more or less satisfactory degree, with NVDA compared with VoiceOver on macOS.
Of course, the problem with Windows is that you might end up getting a cheap machine which would ruin the whole experience. So if one does proper research to end up with a good CPU/SSD/RAM amount, the whole experience will be really pleasant. For instance, an HQ CPU is more likely to generate problems compared with U processors although the latter have come a long way over the past couple of years.
To cut a long story short, while I'm firmly rooted in the iOS ecosystem, I do prefer Windows to macOS despite the latter's advantages like, say, more accessible dictionaries, more accessible RSS readers, etc.
Paradigm Shifts
This is a very well articulated post on the state of Mac OS accessibility.
In the early days, a lot of people with sight loss switched from using screen readers on PC to using VoiceOver on the Mac. After over a decade of VoiceOver running on iPhone, we now have an entirely new generation that will be switching from mobile to the Mac. An iPhone or iPad is often the first computing device someone will use when they start living with sight loss now instead of a PC running NVDA or JAWS.
I find I am way more productive on a Mac than I am on a PC because the computer gets out of the way so I can focus on work, whether it be writing, audio, spreadsheets or enjoying a movie. I recently used a PC for work and I still found myself having to manage the computer, then do my work.
I agree that it's an exciting time to be a Mac user as VoiceOver, combined with a suite of new tech, has incredible potential to transform the way we all work and use our devices.
Whiners will always be there not contributing and only complaining. I've met Sarah Herrlinger in person and presented at Apple HQ in Cupertino. Accessibility is definitely in their DNA and they are committed to making their devices and software accessible to the blind and other disability communities. To say otherwise would be an insult to hardworking people inside Apple and elsewhere who are just as excited as we are for what is coming.
Re: Paradigm Shifts
@Kevin Shaw Whiners are everywhere but so far this post has been immune. Of course, this is a great comparison as opposed to whining as, unlike you, I find myself much more productive on Windows. I like what Apple does and follow them with zeal, but the story of macOS vs Windows is horse of a different color.
Nice Post
Thanks Tyler. I enjoyed reading your post. smile
All I would add is that we all will get better results from Apple by: 1) reaching out to Apple when we are having a problem; and, 2) being positive in our interactions with Apple.
Honey . . ., flies . . ., right?
My thoughts
The Mac is my primary computing platform. My Mac is broken now, so I’m using iOS now. There are things about both platforms I like and dislike. On the Mac, there is a talking install. IOS there’s none. On the Mac, there is a getting started tutorial. None on iOS. I think the Mac is more suited to new users because of the built in help and tutorial. Safari is not responding is an improved message than busy, busy, busy, but I wonder if that behaviour of VoiceOver in macOS is needed at all. Now, we’ve got Apple Silacon, which brings blazing fast processer speeds. Maybe macOS thirteen will bring some speed to VoiceOver and finally get rid of Safari not responding all together. I have a Windows computer, and I don’t use it for anything. I got it on the recommendation of an employment specialest with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind (CNIB), who told me most employers use Windows. While that might be true, I am more productive on macOS and VoiceOver than Windows 11 with JAWS. Yeah, JAWS has Flexable Web, Research it, and Text Annalizer, but it’s not worth the silly SMA. Apple provides VoiceOver completely free, and unlike NVDA, built-in to the opperating system. Apple will always be my favourite company, and the shortcomings of the Mac … well, there are so many people who complane about bugs and don’t actively try to fix them. I’m a registered Apple Developer, but only am for betas. The more people who pay for Apple Developer Program membership, or join the Apple Beta Software program, which is free, the more bugs will be fixt. I was on the phone with Apple Accessibility years ago, and got a shocking statistic. Of VoiceOver users, five percent are beta testers. Now, if more of us beta test, we can help with making VoiceOver on macOS, as good or better than iOS. The Mac is great, beta testers can make it even better, and address it’s shortcomings.
Thank you
Far more eloquently-put than I could have done. I use a Mac Mini to make music, and I find the system so frustrating that I bought a USB switch just so I can swap over to my windows machine to do just about anything that isn't Logic-related, including typing out this reply. I've made my opinions vocal enough on this site though. Suffice to say, I'm not a fan of Mac OS. I hope now, the Apple Silicon transition being mostly complete, that Apple turns their attention to improving the software, Voiceover included. It's pretty good on my iPhone which makes the experience on Mac all the more frustrating. They can make good accessibility. I only wish they could bring that good accessibility to the Mac, especially considering the cost of the hardware.
Only screen reader I have used
Great post, thank you. Just my thoughts - I'm partially sighted user. I've been using VoiceOver on the iPhone for a few months and took to it very quickly and love it. (Even if I do regularly clumsily press the screen instead of swiping left and right)
I've been using VoiceOver in passing on the Mac but have only started relying on it recently. As a new user I found it very overwhelming for a while. I've only just started taking a few baby steps with NVDA and Narrator on Windows now I've got enough confidence to try them, but really all my experience is on VoiceOver.
My opinion is that there is an incredible screen reader in there, but I get frustrated doing pretty much anything with it. Firstly, I think fundamentally the Mac is a mouse operating system. I've often thought thet there is plenty in VoiceOver that should be available to sighted users. Many sighted users prefer the keyboard to the mouse and having a realy fast way to move around would be helpful for everyone. And because it's a niche it gets overlooked by both Apple and 3rd parties.
As you say in the article, there are so many inconsistencies. It seems to me that every app I use is like a puzzle where I need to try to find a unique solution. I often use VO+F and find labels that I remember being there as a sighted user but have no idea how to reach as a blind user. (E.g. on Skype, VO+F, "Recent Chats", VO+Shift+G, VO+Shift+Up a couple of times, then VO+right and finally I can get to the chats list. No doubt there's a better way but I've no idea what it is.
I would say no apps work flawlessly. Even Mail I sometimes the main mailbox or get Not Responding errors opening up a context menu.
Context menus are another inconsistency - sometimes they work, sometimes not. Or sometimes they are entirely different to a right click (e.g. Finder)
I get a lot of issues with focus - e.g. on Safari or Chrome I find I am controlling a different tab than the one at the front. I get a lot of scrolling issues where I will be looking at something and suddenly it shoots me back to the top of the page and I have to find my way back again. This always happens on a really long page and it often takes me minutes to find my way back again.
I use PyCharm a lot, which is just about tolerable now but it's really inconsistent and I don't know if that's VoiceOver or PyChar,. Sometimes it goes quiet completely, sometimes the cursor keys stop working as I would expect, and loads of features don't quite work. And then getting VoiceOver to read out indentation is hacky at best. Using a custom punctuation set on a custom activity used to work but now doesn't.
And then you have apps like Sonos controller, Sublime Text, BBEdit and so on that just don't work at all for whatever reason and it feels there's nothing you can do about it.
No doubt some of these problems are also apparent on Windows, but it's always felt like an OS that is more aware of keyboard usage than the Mac which just relies on millions of shortcuts and hopes 3rd parties do the same.
So I would say my experience is that I'm constantly frustrated and spend far more of my time reporting bugs that no one looks at than I would really care to.
But, as I said, there is a good system in there somewhere. The fact all Mac apps have a dropdown menu is great, and the VoiceOver menus that you can filter are also pretty good. I think if Apple could stop putting in new features and just fix all these bugs then it could become something special.
Anyway, apologies for probably quite a negative reply. Please bear in mind my point of reference is that of a sighted user and so getting frustrated a lot is probably likely no matter what screen reader I am using.
don't confuse between pc and windows.
This is not a comment toward the blog post, but for everyone that is confused to differentiate between pc and windows. Correct me if I am wrong but, a pc is, well, a personal computer, like a desktop and laptop that is for one user only at a time. for example, MacBook Air counts as a laptop pc, because it is portable, unlike a stationary desktop computer. nowadays, however, people seem to recognize a pc as a desktop computer for some reason. now back to my initial point, a desktop computer is not always come with windows, and windows are not only installed on desktop computers. same as mac os, and Linux, windows is an operating system, which could be installed everywhere. The MacBook is not the only laptop out there. there are plenty, if not most of the laptops these days have come with windows. Take a look at Lenovo yoga slim 7i for example. It is powerful and lightweight, like macbooks.
as for my comment on the blog post, I think it's great writing. I prefer windows after trying out macOS for a few weeks, and after banging my head figuring out how to navigate on surtain apps. my work consists of text editing and sound designing. Windows laptops are a lot cheaper as well. starting for 450 USD, you can get a decent laptop that you could use for years.
so yes. for me, pc world, windows, phone world, IOS.
Re: only screenreader I have used
Mr Grieves,
I think your assertion that macOS is a predominantly mouse-driven operating system is extremely well-put. I'd guess that this is partly why Apple doesn't adopt many of the behaviors of VoiceOver on iOS and iPadOS on macOS, as some of the features of mouse-driven interfaces may not have an obvious way to be conveyed with a screenreader. However, as mentioned in the article, I hold out hope that Apple and third-party developers will increasingly leverage the power of the VoiceOver actions menu, accessed by pressing VO-Command-Space when focused on an item that has actions available, to enable VoiceOver users to accomplish tasks that sighted users would accomplish by swiping on or hovering over an element.
Regarding some of your focus issues, are these things you experience when using both the mouse pointer and VoiceOver cursor, or just the VoiceOver cursor? I ask because I don't use the mouse and when using VoiceOver with trackpad commander off, I find focus is generally reliable, in that it doesn't move unpredictably for me.
I enjoy both Windows and mack.
Hey there buddy. Your post is very informative and start forward. In my opinion, The mack OS is a very stable software then windows. One thing I love about the OS is the inbuilt support of Voice-over and how it works. One thing I do lack in the Mack OS is the game support then the windows has. I also love the NVDA and how it has changed the millions of lives of the blind users around the globe.. in conclusion, I agree that both Systems has their ups and down, and we should not fight about it. Have a great day.
macOS
macOS is stable, VoiceOver is not. This article is pretty good and I agree with you regarding the Mac. There's a lot to love, but the VoiceOver neglect spoils it. I agree with Jenna, we should expect a lot more from the pioneer of mainstream accessibility. The Apple apologists who claim this isn't true and Apple engages with people are part of the problem, not the solution in my opinion. It seems as though they're the few exclusive insiders with special access the rest of us can only dream about. Perhaps they don't want to criticize Apple because they're afraid of being outed or fear Apple won't continue working on accessibility? We're paying consumers, we have just as much of a right to constructively criticize when the product doesn't work. If Apple refuses to take our feedback seriously and commit to do better, we vote with our wallets and go elsewhere.
We'll see what macOS 13 has to offer, though I'm not holding my breath. As long as Apple refuses to engage directly with the users they claim to serve and won't hire additional staff to work exclusively on the Mac, I don't expect things to change. It's sad, because VoiceOver has so much potential. It's been around for over 17 years and we're still missing basic functionality such as an efficient reading experience in Apple Books and the ability to navigate properly tagged PDF documents. Don't get me started on the not responding crap in Safari and other places in the system. There's absolutely no reason for that behavior aside from lazy coding and lack of priorities.
Not a Mac user, but...
I pay attention to posts that describe how things are done on the Mac, just in case I have to use one one of these days. It all seems very tedious as apposed to mostly using the up/down/right/left keys, and enter/space keys to do most things the mouse does. I use Linux and Orca mostly, which is a bit like the stick shift screen reader to NVDA or JAWS. Voice Over on Mac sounds more like Emacspeak with ten-thousand key commands that require twelve fingers, and I have a hard time getting my head around all this need for interacting and drilling down. I don't think I do that on the iPhone, unless I don't understand what those terms mean.
The article gives me a lot of temptations, like seamless compatibility with the iPhone, but then I read the negatives and I just can't see myself being happy with having to go through all that to use the basics of the computer. It was said the Mac is mouse based, but so are Windows and most of the desktops on Linux. Why did Apple have to reinvent the wheel with what appears to be a Rube Goldberg machine?
If accessibility is in Apple…
If accessibility is in Apple's DNA, then that DNA has degraded quite a bit. Then again, Apple is getting to be an old company, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I rarely use my MacBook Pro 2019 (four thunderbolt ports). It's just plain unproductive when browsing the web, reading, and just about everywhere else I use it for. Don't even get me started on Google Docs with it. I mean, Docs doesn't even suck that much with Linux! I do love writing with it though. That's an area where it really gets out of your way. But I'm not about to use a $1500 computer just as a word processor. Not in $Current-year!
Thoughts from an M1 User
Hi everyone. Tyler, thanks for such a good post. I got an M1 MacBook Air for Christmas, and really like it. I'm getting the "Safari not responding" message from time to time, and I have a theory about this which may be way out in left field but here goes. For me at least, that message only seems to pop up on websites that are rather cluttered and not formatted very well for screen readers. I'd welcome any input on this. Other than that though, this M1 Mac is working well for me. I started with VoiceOver on Mavericks, and I'd have to agree with those of you who say it has improved over the years. Sure there are still bugs here and there, but I like what Apple have done with VoiceOver on Mac OS and on iOS. Speaking of iOS, I love it and am most definitely staying with it for the foreseeable future. Cheers all and long live AppleVis!
reply to Devin
Devin brings up Google Docs not working well on the Mac. Is that not a Google problem and not a Apple one? Pages works well, and for that matter Word has made really good strides from what it used to be. I'm not saying Apple bares no fault, but tossing out a program made by a company who lets be honest doesn't have the best accessibility track record doesn't really make sense to me. Example Google doing the biggest braille update in years and they leave out the new hid standard they said they were backing several years ago. I don't blame Apple if the Twitter app doesn't work that's Twitters issue.
Braille Use Case
I've used Mac OS for 3 years and iOS for 9. I'm a totally blind user that also uses VoiceOver on Apple platforms as well as NVDA and JAWS on Windows. I do, however, also use braille quite heavily and wanted to weigh in as a braille user.
Navigating with a braille display is a much smoother process on Windows. I can pan line by line in a web browser, whereas the braille display sits blank while trying to navigate in a browser on Mac. On Windows, I can also type in a Word file and use the cursor routing buttons on my braille display to move my cursor. Typing with the braille display in a Word or Pages file on the Mac results in characters either duplicated or missing, and using the cursor buttons either makes the app say "Pages/Word not responding" for several minutes or makes the braille display freeze. The word processor freezing bug is relatively new to Monterey, at least I don't recall it being an issue in Big Sur. Big Sur, in my opinion, was the best I have ever seen braille support.
There is also a bug new to Monterey that results in the braille display freezing whenever the Mac goes to sleep and is opened back up. It's like the braille display never quite realizes the Mac is awake again and stalls on whatever was last on the screen. My braille display's personal favorite message is "application window". I've found that toggling VoiceOver off and back on usually helps, although occasionally VoiceOver doesn't come back on and I'll have to restart my computer. this is never an issue I’ve had with either Jaws or NVDA.
I am pleased that Apple has made their braille display setup plug-and-play, regardless of which display you have. In both NVDA and JAWS, you have to set up the display using speech first and usually end up having to restart the screen reader. It's also incredibly easy to mute VoiceOver so you can use the braille display without speech once it's connected. JAWS does have speech on demand, but from my experience the braille display moves slower than it would if you were using full speech. There is no difference with VoiceOver. I also do like the fact that I can connect my braille display to my Mac either via bluetooth or USB. I've attempted to use bluetooth connectivity with JAWS and NVDA before but to no avail.
Speaking more generally, I also enjoy the connectedness across Apple devices. I love being able to write a paper on my Mac and it show up right there on my iPad without having to email it to myself. I also like that I can set my trackpad up to behave like an iOS device and that, for the most part, native Apple applications work the way they're supposed to. As a consumer, it makes me feel valued knowing that I can walk up to any Mac, press Command-F5, and immediately start using it independently.
The "safari not responding" bug is the bane of my existence, although I think "Finder not responding" or "application, authentication not responding" is worse.
Thank you for this post. I've been frustrated with my Mac since the Monterey update and have started the process of switching back to Windows. This post made me consider my decision a bit more objectively, and I can't thank you enough for that.
Reply to Joe
Google Docs works as well as any web document editor could on Windows. Since Google Docs is used very often in education and employment now (I use it heavily for work unfortunately), I *need* this to be smooth. Is it Apple's fault? A bit. They should be testing their screen reader with common use cases, like, uh, just about every other screen reader manufactorer does. Apple is, since they've taken on that responsibility and won't let anyone else do it, a screen reader manufactorer. They make Voiceover. They're the only ones that can. So they need to get it in gear and act like one.
Now, could Google do better? Yeah, of course. But Apple should be trying to meet them halfway, not just saying "oh use Pages haha."
Main advantages of macOS over Windows
Hello,
as a blind accessibility tester, I have to work in both macOS and Windows 11. In my use case, I find quite efficient working on both platforms in parallel. Here, I would like to point out which main tasks I prefer to do on macOS as opposed to on Windows.
Basically, for all other tasks, mainly working with Word or Excel files, or programming, I prefer Windows with the JAWS screen reader. When it comes to browsing the web, I would say Windows can offer a more comfortable experience, though sometimes, such as when opening links from email, I use Safari on Mac as well.
Braille on macOS
the worst thing on macOS is currently the braille display support. Some elements are often not displayed on the braille display (e.g. in the safari browser or chrome browser) and the panning is full of bugs. Nevertheless, Apple is working actively on resolving those issues and maybe macOS 13 will bring a big update to braille display support. Monterey for example brought many improvements, especially in the single item mode.
Macs were made for mice. Also I wrote to Tim Cook
Technically the correct plural of computer mouse is computer mouses, but no. Anyway...
I definitely agree that Mac OS is a mouse-first operating system. Recently, I found out that those dmg files you open which have an applications shortcut will have a massive "drag here" icon on that shortcut. absolutely zero way to figure this out with Voiceover. Looking up tutorials? Hundred bucks that it'll say "click and drag" at some point in the article. It's a mouse-centric OS that has keyboard support whereas Windows is a keyboard-centric OS that has mouse support. One of the biggest characteristics that lead me to this conclusion is that Windows has far more OS-wide keystrokes compared to Mac OS. If you want a new explorer window, hit windows+e literally anywhere. On Mac, you have to switch to Finder and then use the keystroke for a new window. Neither is better or worse, mind you. Just totally different control philosophies. Still, as a blind user who doesn't even have a trackpad to use the trackpad commander, I find Mac OS's paradigm a lot more frustrating. Overall, I quite like Mac OS as an operating system. It's got a lot of cool features, integration with my iphone, and when I plug USB devices in, they either work or they don't. To this day, I cannot get my mixer and digital piano to function properly together with Reaper on Windows. Meanwhile, I plug them into my Mac Mini, load up Logic Pro, and I'm making music within minutes. Don't even get me started on Thunderbolt hubs. Those introduce another layer of unpredictability on my Windows machine.
Basically, what I'm saying is that I like Mac OS despite its quirks and differences, and I despise Voiceover for Mac OS which seems to handle about as well as a blimp piloted by an eagle and will never ever cease to frustrate me with its endless list of bugs and hiccups. In fact, rather than continue complaining ineffectually, I've written an email to Tim Cook. You can too. His address is tcook@gmail.com. It's publicly available, and he does actually respond, though they are filtered and sorted by staff first. I mean hey, nobody else at Apple seems to care, so might as well go all the way to the top. No, it's not my usual nerdy neurodivergent rants. I save those for when I'm screaming into the void. It was all properly formatted and nicely done up. Will he or his staff respond? Only time will tell.
Feedback Assistant
You can also visit https://feedbackassistant.apple.com/ , for sharing feedback (even if you're not a dev/public beta-testor).
BTW, if you're gonna test public betas on a Mac, be sure to have a 'Time Machine' backup drive handy.
Response to Adam...
@Adam, I've used Time Machine but not on my M1 Mac yet. There was a problem with my external hard drive but I think it's fixed now. I will have to get an adapter though since the new Macs don't have a port for plugging in external hard drives. But I like Time Machine.
I got a response
I was surprised when I got a reply back from Apple Accessibility (and not Tim Cook or a member of the executive team). It's not the response I wanted, but realistically it's probably the best I could have hoped for. They did address my issues, so that's a good start. Long story short, I think if we want anything fixed, we're going to have to start submitting feedback about the Ventura beta. Suddenly a years-old accessibility issue is transformed into a relevant beta bug. No, I'm not happy about having to put beta software on my production machine, but that's what time machine backups and dropbox and disk partitions are for, right? Call me an ungrateful pessimist, but I'm not too optimistic about the situation changing much if we don't do this. I think most people would start building at least a little resentment if they had to deal with these bugs every time they try to make music and get paid. Anyway, the reply is as follows:
Hello Jenna,
Thank you for your email. We wanted to reach out to discuss the VoiceOver feedback you provided.
We wanted to let you know that the behaviors involving an app or instance stating that it “is not responding” are currently under investigation. There are many bug fixes and improvements with VoiceOver coming in macOS Ventura this Fall.
We invite you to test out the software, which can be done by signing up for our program at the following link:
https://beta.apple.com/sp/betaprogram
In regards to braille display support, Apple supports the USB-IF standard. Any braille display made to the universal specification is supported by Mac. You can read more about this at the following link:
https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/2018-08/usb-if_hid_press_release_final.pdf
We have a list of supported braille displays, and if you find a model not on the list, please let us know so that we can investigate. Here’s the list we have:
https://support.apple.com/guide/voiceover/supported-displays-cpvobrailledisplays/mac
You can provide feedback directly to Apple’s accessibility team at this address. All feedback is thoroughly vetted and reported to the appropriate teams.
Sincerely,
Apple Accessibility
For more information on Accessibility at Apple, please visit:
http://www.apple.com/accessibility
http://www.apple.com/support/accessibility
Skeptical
I'm still a bit skeptical. While it doesn't sound like a totally canned response, it definitely sounds scripted to a large degree. We'll see what happens. I'll monitor this website closely and perhaps if things improve and then continue to improve next year with macOS 14, I may consider jumping back into the Mac ecosystem. My 2013 Air is stuck on Big Sur, although it makes a really great Windows 11 laptop! If I end up jumping back into Mac land, I'll probably get a Mac Mini with the M2 or future chips.
Disk partitions
Jenna, regarding disk partitions, I would definitely recommend creating a separate one if you plan to install the beta. This way, if you experience a particularly serious bug, you shouldn't need to restore or downgrade anything.
Just Keep Your Options open
You'll be glad of them, even if you never use them. On my Intel iMac, I can still run Windows, Linux and ChromeOS; in future my Mac will be an air, and I'll have to use a dedicated x86-64 box unless Windows-on-ARM gets there first.
I used Mac OS X since Leopard (and had a bit of previous experience of Tiger as well before that). Things could get really rough then too. The difference, of course, was that Apple fixed it when it broke, and you told them. And they'd write back to you, personally and in relatively short order, to tell you as much, and sometimes even leave notes in the Software Update release history. Ah, now those were the days ...
I'm sure that the crisis of confidence we have about macOS is in no small part due to the shifting sands of Apple's business priorities and it's much larger focus, even within accessibility. But I also think it's objectively true that we wouldn't feel anything like as morose about it if Apple were only more willing to communicate with us, as it did back then, rather than through emotive PR pieces around the time of a new release. Knowing that they knew about and acknowledged bugs we've taken the trouble to find and report would sure help. You can do the work, sure--by all means, get and install the betas, and do your bit--but I fully understand if, after all that effort, you feel badly let down because you get absolutely no reward for it, or even the expectation of future reward for it, and are dismayed to find all the bugs still there when a new release comes out, along with a fresh set of newly-introduced bugs. It's all very miserable. I do try not to be conspiracy-minded, but it really doesn't matter, ultimately, whether Apple cares or not about accessibility on any level internally, or whether we as a community have simply fallen under the jackboot of a gigantic and relentless corporate machine--the end result is just the same, and we get sub-par and, yes, unacceptable levels of service.
So keep your options open. I'll confess my love for macOS, acknowledge its many accessibility failings, and still use it while it meets my needs and makes me happy. But I'll always have my metaphorical eye on the escape pod release mechanism. It's true I'd never voluntarily use Windows, and every time I've tried it I've always fled the horrible scene, but I always recognise that it's often just what you're used to and a question of pros and cons. Right now, macOS's pros outweigh the cons. That could change, especially now Windows has WSL, which is one of the few things that makes a nerd like me exceptionally happy on macOS, along with all the other platform features that are just nice to have and uniquely Mac (system-wide spell-check and dictionary, accessible table widgets, tight iOS integration, etc). But who knows? Apple's relentless drive to "iOSify" the Mac might mean one or two more useful apps on the platform, but it might also mean that one day native apps become less accessible, just like on Windows now, or that the platform becomes unbearably locked down. It's all to play for. And Linux, though rough, is still getting better. Even ChromeOS, for those who can use it, might be an option.
@Sebby
I feel this. I'm more upset by the responses I've gotten back. I wrote to Tim Cook because I felt the accessibility team was just paying us lip service and stashing the problems away. I was not happy when the email came from Apple Accessibility. I am not happy that I'm effectively being forced into becoming a beta tester to fix bugs that shouldn't even exist. I'm more upset by the fact that they suggest I do this despite me explicitly saying I use my Mac Mini for production. I'm upset that I now have to take time out of my music production to set up a completely separate environment and go hunt for bugs that they already know about. I don't /have/ to, but I really, really am skeptical that any of this will be fixed if somebody doesn't take the initiative to start rattling cages and making noise.
I like my Mac, honest, but Voiceover makes me want to yeet the thing out the Window, and Apple's' response just makes me angrier. I use a Windows machine as a daily driver, and if this keeps getting worse, I think I may very well switch over to Reaper in the future. I don't want to, but I'd like to have a machine that isn't full of bugs.
They say there are many bug fixes in Ventura. I'll believe it when I get to try out the public beta. Until then, I will remain skeptical.
my opinion
Loving Mac OS
I'm absolutely enjoying using Mac, especially the new beta test. It seems very stable, and finally the Mac is getting some attention.
@Erick
I totally agree. Also braille support will be much improved when Ventura finally gets released in October this year.
@HEXAGON
Here's my take on this. I can buy a Windows machine. I can install NVDA. Not only is that option cheaper, but in many cases, it's less buggy. Braille also isn't broken there. That then begs the question of why I use a Mac at all. The answer to that is because where Apple does excel is in software support. I install Logic, and it works quite well. There's no installing an accessibility script or what have you to start making music. This makes the shortcomings all the more frustrating.
I am happy that Apple actually cares about accessibility. I like Mac OS, and I thought I had made that clear. All that said, I expect better. I expect better because I'm paying a premium over other companies. I expect better because Apple markets its products as being extremely accessible. I expect better because I rely on these products to live my life to its fullest potential. I expect better because tech companies are finally starting to take accessibility more seriously. Google is finally baking Braille support into Talkback. Microsoft has built adaptive controllers for their consoles. Game developers are adding more and more accessibility features. Modders are creating mods to make games accessible.
When I pay $1000+ for a product that's marketed as being accessible, I expect it to be accessible and not just meet some arbitrary barebones standard. I accept that we are a minority. I accept that bugs may take longer to fix. I do not accept that experience-breaking bugs like ""Safari is not responding" to remain for months and years. If I were a sighted user and my Safari window went black at regular intervals, I would assume the machine is defective and take it back to the store. If my computer entered an infinite loop of showing a not-responding screen every time the screen locked, I would assume something is wrong.
It's hard to have faith in the accessibility team when bugs stick around for multiple OS versions. I'm on iOS 15 and there are still focus bugs. Voiceover volume still goes sky high when connected to a Bluetooth speaker. I still can't get computer Braille to work right. On Mac OS, Quicknav still breaks for no apparent reason and requires a Voiceover restart. This bug was around on Mac OS 10.15. Now I'm on an M1 machine running 12.3 and it still happens. You get to a certain point where "we're working on it" is no longer a satisfactory response.
Apple making good products does not make them immune from criticism. Accessibility is part of the software experience, and it should improve. New features are great. I think door detection is fantastic, and yet at the same time I can still be upset about Braille and volume and focus bugs. I can congratulate Apple for their efforts in forwarding accessibility and criticize them for not fixing long-standing problems. These two things are not mutually exclusive. Maybe the accessibility team really is listening to us. If so, I don't think they've done a very good job of showing that as of late. If it's the fault of Apple's management, then it's all the more reason for criticism since they're not letting the accessibility team do their job.
I'm not stupid. I'm upset. I'm also going to put in the effort to see if I can do something about it. That's why I'm going to install the beta and report bugs. It doesn't mean I'm going to be happy about it.
Well Said
This is very well said. By choosing to implement accessibility features, Apple has become an AT company. Therefore, it's their responsibility to maintain and update that AT regularly to provide the best possible experience and make their PR a reality.
@jenna
It's not about not being allowed to criticize Apple. Of course, they offer appropriate accessibility features and of course you can criticize them, especially when there are bugs and they persist for a long time and ruin the user experience. Strangely, however, only the accessibility team is ever criticized. To take up the example of "Safari not responding": The cause of this bug has been actively searched for since last year. Unfortunately, this is not as simple as some people imagine. Especially with such a bug, different teams are involved, because it is completely unclear whether the bug is caused by VoiceOver itself or something is wrong with the WebKit engine. Unfortunately, you can't expect Apple to fix this immediately like an AT company. The main focus is simply not on accessibility. Apple is not an AT Company. Therefore I don't understand why it is always compared to NVDA. The producer of NVDA is an AT organization (NV Access) and provides a software for Windows. This is not built in. So NV Access only focuses on accessibility and not dozens of other areas as well. If you really want to compare the Mac to Windows, you'd have to compare Narrator to VoiceOver. And if VoiceOver is really just "barebones standard" for you, then you've probably never used Narrator or other integrated screen readers in production on other systems. VoiceOver is miles ahead of the competitors. I also can't see where Apple would fail to deliver on their PR. What Apple promises on their website is possible - and not just according to a "barebones standard", like Amazon or Microsoft, who like to promise more than they can then offer. It is also rather narrow-minded to claim that other (sighted) users do not have problems that are experience-breaking. It just depends on what you use, and as soon as you are a bit more specialized, even sighted users have problems over a long period of time that do not represent the user experience that you actually expect from such an expensive device. I'm only thinking of things like numerous problems with SMB, memory leaks, problems with external displays on M1 machines and much more.
@HEXAGON
Those problems are real, and they should be fixed for the same reason that these machines are expensive and Apple's marketing is very much pushing the "it just works" narrative.
Would you like me to list the other aspects of Apple I dislike? I think their environmentalism is a thinly-veiled cash-grab, considering that the same year they removed the charger from the box, they changed the connector on the adapter-end of their cables and wireless charging is inherently less efficient than wired charging. I think that their new self-repair program, while commendable and a big step in the right direction, doesn't go nearly far enough and still needlessly restricts product repairability. On the topic of repairability, their products still remain notoriously difficult to open and repair. I'm strongly against their implementation of serial numbers on iPhone batteries, a component that Apple themselves consider consumable. I also dislike their CSAM policy of opting to scan images on your devices even if you don't upload to iCloud. I dislike their App Store policies. I can cite a myriad of design flaws in their MacBooks. I can point out criticisms in the inability to upgrade storage on the Mac Studio despite having removeable storage or the permanently-attached cable on the Studio display or the exorbitent pircetag on the Pro Display XDR which prices out normal consumers and falls short of the specs professionals need for reference work. I could go on and on about how frustrating the lightning connector is. I focus on criticizing accessibility here because this is an accessibility-focused community. Apple is not an AT company, but they do put emphasis on the accessibility of their products, so it should be getting more attention. I can't argue about Narrator, though I will say it has improved substantially since the days of Windows 7, and while NVDA isn't available by default, the fact remains that Windows has multiple options. Mac OS does not. I'm familiar with the limitations of the M1: missing avx-512, SMB issues which should absolutely be fixed, external display limitations which are less restrictive on the M2, and really weird USB support which annoys me, but most of these don't render an entire application useless on the regular.
My thoughts on MacBook
I use a MacBook Air M2, an what I can say is that I have come across a few of the things you have mentioned, but maybe I'm lucky because a lot of them haven't happened.
First, I will say I haven't seen the one you mention about text deleted when in messages or cutting text, it usually just goes quiet and just sends the message.
I also seem to be having no issues with safari, but obviously new versions have come out so maybe it has been fixed. I've had my Mac since July of last year and am using it now. I have had no slowdown from voiceover while reading the article.
I did notice a marked increase in general performance of VoiceOver and the Mac since switching to m2, previous experiences with intel Macs were mixed.
I also think in some ways as you said that macOS could be very confusing for new users, its only after I spent a lot of time looking at options and learning the system that I got used to it and I would say even now there are things that I still don't know that well that can come across as confusing.
The integration is unmatched, and the speed and other features are very nice to have as well.
I'll look forward to seeing what apple does over the next few years with VoiceOver and features, especially with the m series Macs.
Re: my thoughts on MacBook
Since posting this article, I've upgraded from my 2018 Intel-based MacBook Air to an M2 one. My experiences are similar to yours, performance seems to be much improved in Safari and generally when navigating the system, however many of the quirks and inconsistencies of macOS still remain.
I think some of the VoiceOver improvements I've noticed are related to Ventura, particularly in System Settings. While the placement and structure of some settings is somewhat puzzling to me, I find VoiceOver behaves much more consistently than it did in the classic System Preferences app. Also, the native commands for speaking the time, date, battery level, and Wi-Fi status are a very welcome quality of life improvement.
My thaughts about macos
I have thought many times about switching to the Apple side of the force, but the problems with VoiceOver make me stick with Windows. As a student who is about to join college next year, I don't want to risk my PC crashing or experiencing any software compatibility issues. However, who knows what might happen in a couple of years.
Integration with the Apple ecosystem
You gotta love Integration with the Apple ecosystem
integration
"I would certainly love integration with everything. After all, one thing I liked was the integration my Android had with my PC, which I no longer have with the iPhone. But my fear is related to practical situations, such as text processing, programming, web browsing, etc."
Web
I find vo to be a good on the web mby it is depend upon what code in the web sight programming
Ports are slim on the air
The pro has more ports then the air
Safari
I cannot confirm the problems of losing focus after cmd-tabbing through other apps. Maybe it has to do something with the setting that the mouse cursor follows the VO cursor? You can turn this off in the VO Utility under Navigation.
Regarding the "Not responding" issues, yeah, they're still there but not getting worse for me on a MacBook Air M1. Even more frustrating is the fact that some sites are very slow when navigating quickly. Especially in more complicated web apps which use JS widgets, carousels etc.
Web browsing
If you switch to other browsers, such as chrome or firefox doesn't solve the problems?
Idk
Never tryed chrome on mack but love to see anyone ipinings
Safari
The tab thing happens only when I'm not trying to capture the problem to report to Apple it seems.
I think when ctrl and tabbing if VO speaks the name of the tab, then it means it has worked. If it doesn't, then the tab has changed visually but VO still thinks it's on a previous tab. Yesterday I really struggled to just open a new tab and go to a wen site. No doubt part of that was my problem but VO just wasn't giving me the feedback that anything was happening. It just all feels so hit and miss. I also find that when I do open a new tab and want to go to one of the bookmarks, sometimes VO+F works as it should, and sometimes it just won't find my bookmarks.
My whole problem with the Mac is that it's just so unpredictable. When it's working well, it's a very good experience, particularly with num pad commander. But it is the constant mental effort that has to go into fussing about with it that drives me mad.
Well, a lot of the first party Mac apps are just horrible to use too, but I guess you could get used to them if you needed to. For example, when you open an app and just get "Collection". And then I tend to just get lost.
I don't think there is a really good web browser for the Mac. Chrome wasn't bad but since Ventura it's become quite problematic to use and now can't read long tables properly, and keeps cycling around a page so you can't get through it. Safari sometimes has that problem too. I end up having to use both and flitting between them as I get issues.
I keep flirting with Windows but struggle to put the time into it. The way I see it is that it has choice, which is good. but also bad because it feels like you need to learn two or three different screen readers to get things done. For example, NVDA doesn't seem to work in Terminal. And the whole Windows interface is so inconsistent - it makes me so glad when I switch to the Mac and all menus work the same way. I hated the Windows ribbon as a sighted user, and it definitely hasn't improved now I use a screen reader. Or things like the menus in Edge where it's just a bit weird. Or when Windows just goes quiet - possibly when NVDA has crashed.
But I guess the difference is that you can probably master Windows with enough effort, but on the Mac it will always end up feeling like a battle.
I've read a lot of things about people going from Windows to Mac and finding VoiceOver hard to adjust to because it works so differently. I have the opposite problem as VO actually feels quite natural to me now, bugs aside. I guess it's less common to have VoiceOver on the Mac as your first screen reader. The Mac just saps all my energy and I find it quite hard to stomach using a computer other than when I have to.
Chrome
What’s everyone experiences with chrome on the mack
Screen readers
NVDA its better now, but it crashes in random moments, for example when I skip 2 or 3 tracks in spotify faster than the usual, it just dies and I need to restart it.
One advantage of windows, its that if one of your screen readers decides that today it's to lazy to work, you have another options. In mac you have voice over and thats it, if it crashes you dont have a backup option.
About the user interface, I never tested mac, it seens a bit confusing, but one day I will test it and see for myself.