Advice needed from AppleVis Community, Should I Switch to Windows?

Although I actually have no real answers for you, I thought I'd weigh in, anyway. Personally, I have never used anything but an iPhone. I have no experiences on the Mac to even draw from. However, I have used my Windows machine for work productivity, as well as personal enjoyment. In all of the threads I read here, in general, anyway, it seems like those who use Mac continue to have more issues than they would like to see. On the windows side, I am so thankful that I'm able to edit my word documents, utilize excel properly, Jump online, and browse using Google as my chosen browser. I have never had any real issues with Windows, and when I got my iPhone, I just seriously never seen the need to switch over to the Mac environment. Given all of the things I have read on these forums, over the years, I'm glad that I never switched away. Windows and jaws for me is it. I will not use NVDA. Jaws is more capable, in my personal opinion.

I do have some very good news for you, however, should you decide to make the switch. In order for jaws to be learned, Freedom Scientific has taken the time to put some training lessons together which will do two things for you. First of all, of course it will teach you jaws itself, but in the process, due to the fact that you were having to learn how to use jaws you also are forced into learning how to navigate the windows system, and you're introduced to all of the segments that you will be interacting with. I had found that when I first started using windows, coming from DOS, I had no knowledge of anything. Simply by me using the training lessons that they gave me in jaws, I was able to understand windows and it's environment, and learn how to use jaws to interact with a computer. Frankly, I was quite surprised at my skills, when I was finished with the lessons. I think that you will find it very useful, and get you running back up to your full productivity, if you decide to switch. I hope that you find a solution that works for you soon. It's very difficult to manage a system that doesn't work properly, never mind the time lost due to problems that quite honestly should never occurred to begin with.

accessibility on apple suffers, especially on IOS 16.4 and macOS ventura. those systems are bad.

Hi! I have been an iPhone user for more than 11 years, and at one point I was tempted to buy a Mac, but, after hearing that so many people have been disappointed with VoiceOver on the Mac, I decided to stick with Windows. But you don't have to pay for JAWS to have a good Windows experience: NVDA has now become a very efficient screenreader, which I started using full-time the same year I got my first iPhone, and there are guides to using it, just as there are for JAWS. If you prefer JAWS, that's fine, I just want to remind you that, unlike with the Mac, there is a choice of screenreaders you can use on Windows.

I disagree about iOS 16.4 being a bug-ridden release, but am not in a position to talk about macOS ventura as I'm a hard-core Windows user. I tested the Mac several times and decided it's not for me.

Clare Page has an important point. I was a JAWS user for many years but switched to NVDA few years ago, and find it even more capable in certain areas. At least people on Windows have a choice.

I use my Mac and still love it. Yes it has problems, but folks who have Windows forgive their devices to much. things such as battery life, fan noise, bad implementation of sound cards, etc.. I bought a Surface 9 from Microsoft itself and quickly sent it back. Using NVDA and Jaws on bluetooth headset was just awful in that sound would cut out and that was even running that white noise file they offer. I think since Windows is trying to support dolbie things have gone to hell.

For me what I need to do in Windows can be done on a virtual machine but I would say you need to be the judge on what you want.

I have been a life-long Windows user and don't plan on switching any time soon. I find navigation to be more efficient, less complicated and having the ability to switch between screen readers is such a great bonus. There are times when NVDA does better than JAWS and vice versa and when both fail, Narrator has been known to save the day for me. I agree with the point above that having the JAWS training bundle is super helpful for those new to Windows and because JAWS is so well integrated into Windows, you do learn a lot about the OS on top of learning to use JAWS.

@Joe I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. You said: "folks who have Windows forgive their devices to much." I'm not one of them! The point is that Windows machines exist in various shapes and price points. If you spend on a good, modern and capable Windows machine, you won't have issues like fan noise, chassi hotness, etc. The latest Intel CPUs have even started matching Apple's CPU performance and, to most extent, battery life. On the other hand, I think Mac VoiceOver users, some of them of course, forgive the bugs and shortcomings of their screen reader too much.

First off, I've never badmouthed any technology which works for anyone, windows or Mac. What i'm frustrated with is the lack of anyone getting anything done on the Mac side because of the mentality of, oh I'll just go to windows. Or, the mentality of 99% of society uses Windows, so screw any other option in so many areas. I have always hoped that the Mac would really gain a bit more functionality as in games and apps, especially when we were all under lock and key for awhile. Yet, it seems like everyone just says well I know windows, I'll stick with it. It's my own cross to bear but I just have no idea why someone isn't really as frustrated as I and wanting to increase accessibility by actually going to apple time and again, showing them how awful voice Over has become, keep bugging them. sure the accessibility emails are great, but I suspect we are not being listened to and fear we won't be if people just give up the ghost and go back to windows. Having said this, If you switch to windows and you like it, I'm glad for you. I switched from windows because I was tired of errors, tired of spending money on JFW every year. sure a mac's expensive but buggy and bad as it can be, I can't imagine how much money I've saved. As for NVDA, no complaints, i used it on my Dad's desktop when he screws up lol. Good luck with your choice.

well, since we have more accesible video games to play ever before

I think windows system is the best for video gaming

I think that's what's so awesome about our day in technological advancements, we really do have a lot of choice. To those who mentioned that NVDA is getting better, thank you. I had no idea. I had no need to even investigate. I stand corrected that it is not capable. Now don't get me started about JFW prices that we pay every darn year. That one is a big issue for me. It is the one reason why I considered switching to a Mac, so that I didn't have the financial hit every year. Nevertheless, that financial hit was not enough to make me switch. Which ever way you go, I'm sure that you will find a solution. As everyone has said, Only you know what you like best, so you really have to just make your own decision here. I hope this form has helped you to choose one way or the other, so that you can get back to normal again.

As stated above, make the choice that is best for you. Personally, I use both Windows and Mac. I just purchased a 14-inch MacBook Pro with an M2 processor. I'm not experiencing "busy" in Safari as much as I do with my 21-inch 2014 iMac. There are applications that I really enjoy on the Mac. My job uses Windows. If you already have a Mac, nothing says you have to get rid of it if you wish to obtain a Windows computer. There is a learning curve to anything new, but it is entirely possible to utilize both platforms for different tasks if you wish. Having choice is definitely something I appreciate. I remember when Macs weren't even an option to blind computer users several years ago. While VoiceOver on the Mac may not be everything some people want it to be, it did receive new features last year. The notion that Apple doesn't add anything to VoiceOver on the Mac is not accurate. It isn't the same VoiceOver that was introduced in OS 10.4 Tiger. Could things be better? Definitely. Could things be better on Windows? Absolutely. There are issues with both platforms, but neither is absolutely horrible. Again, choose what works best for you.

Money!!!! Nice that you can do both but some need to choos one or the other. Is all about the money.

I agree with Roxann about the pricing. I, too, used JAWS for several years and it just got too heavy on my parents' pocket book. As has been stated here before, the choice is yours to make and ultimately only yours. But I for one am happy I switched to Apple products because of the included screen reader.

Jaws is the more powerful screen reader. NVDA is a basic screen reader which lacks customization that Jaws gives you. I love my iPhone but I will never buy a mac. It is to buggy.

I seen people talk about the mac and how VO does not work well and takes forever to address bugs. JAWS is not perfect but they do address bugs and they have talk to jaws clients with issues. They even put it on the podcast. Windows is also better. Before someone jump allover me, do like my iPhone, watch and iPad. I had a iPhone since 4. I went from 4, 4s, 5, 6, 7, xs, 11 pro max, 12 pro and in Nov got the 13 pro.

I made the switch from Jaws to NVDA when I started a new job in 2020 for verious reasons to deal with internal IT. I'm able to program every bit as efficiently with NVDA as I was Jaws. While Jaws does offer better scripting support and some more customizability it's likely that most users don't need those features unless there using specific applications for work such as terminal emulators or internally written software.

If your Macbook Pro is an intel one you should be able to buy a WIndows 11 license and install it with Bootcamp. I did this with Windows 10 back in 2013 when I had a Macbook air. I never got used to Voiceover on the Mac so just used my Macbook Air as a windows machine 95% of the time.

So in around 2010 I moved everything to the mac, in my time with Mac I bought 4 MacBook pro’s an iMac and a Mac mini. Somewhere around £15,000 in hardware. I’ve always struggled getting things done as efficiently as windows but for some reason I stubbornly stuck to my Mac hardware as I preferred OS X to Windows and I loved the hardware. What I eventually ended up doing was just using my iPad and iPhone and selling off my Mac machines one by one as they disappointed and frustrated more than enabled me. Recently as most of you will be aware even iOS and iPad OS have been slipping in accessibility especially using the web. I don’t want to remember how many hours and days of my life have been spent banging my head against a wall trying to get the simplest of things accomplished on safari. Around a year ago I bought a Lenovo x13 yoga which has pretty much sat unused since then but in the last few days I’ve got round to using it with JAWS and honestly I’m blown away how accessible the web still is. Voiceover seems like a toy compared to JAWS especially when using edge compared to safari. I feel so liberated not to have the usual frustrations of trying to accommodate voiceovers special needs to just get simple things done and its left me even more frustrated that Apple have let voiceover slip so far compared to their competition. The web has got significantly more complex in the last decade and Apple just haven’t kept up whereas JAWS have. My experience with JAWS is similar to how I remember it over 13 years ago even though the web is a very different place these days. I suspect I’ll be reaching for my laptop far more now but I’m still sad to see my love for Apple and its beautiful hardware fading behind me. I have to get stuff done though and Apple just isn’t up to it anymore. Speaking of which focus has jumped at least 5 times while typing this and VO has crashed twice. It’s a joke but a very sad one because of the time and money I’ve spent on Apple. It’s no longer the desirable and worth spending extra halo company it once was for accessibility at least. Our devices and OS’s are meant to get out of the way and enable us to do things. Whether sighted or blind but sadly my apple devices are in the way more often than enabling these days and I’ve just found an alternative that works great. It might not be as pretty but it will do because it can get the job done better.

Hello Andy. Yours is the kind of review that I seriously wish that those who are in charge of Apple could read, and take to heart. Yours is the exact reason why I'm so glad I never switched. Please don't misunderstand me, guys, I'm just stating that every time I look through these forum threads, and this discussion comes up, I see more people headed toward windows. For those whose experiences are great on Mac, I'm very happy for you. You do have advantages of voiceover built-in, And the continuity affect, when everything is working well, between devices. However, I'm still very glad that I haven't switched to Mac.

Just reading about how Voice Over commands work on the Mac scares me away. I don't use Windows so much anymore, I used both JAWS and NVDA, but there was a directness about the screen readers to the operating system, menus and the programs. That got messed up a little with the ribbon menus though.
The Mac sounds like it has layers and layers of things you have to go through--I think it's called interacting--to get to what you're actually wanting to work on. I like pressing Enter to open a file, a program, selecting a menu item and so on, and the Alt key, alone or with a letter, usually pulled down the menu options in most cases, which were very easily navigable with the arrow keys alone. I could be mistaken about the Mac, and you can get by with the arrow keys and the Mac equivalent of the Alt key, but I haven't come across anything stating that.

Hi Roxann, TBH that was the reason I wrote my comment. I very much hope someone from Apple is at least reading this forum if not acting on what they see. I know the chances of my move away from Apple has almost 0 chance of being seen by someone who can actually put a firecracker in the behind of the accessibility team and get them the resources they need to deliver a product they can be proud of and we can be proud of and use effectively. If they don't know, they can't do anythign about it. I am sad to see all my Apple stuff go, it was so pretty but at the end of the day thats not good enough when I want to get stuff done. Its all very well having you enjoy owning but having something you can use without frustration wins in the end for me. it took over a decade but the reality is JAWS is just better than VO. I think OS X is better than windows but that doesn't help me because I need the accessibility layer to work for me to use the hardware and OS. I wonder if i'll be moving my phone and tablet next. Lets see. I hope not but practicality wins in the end. I haven't tried the offerings from android recently so who knows, maybe its better than the iPhone already and I just don't know it yet. I doubt it but i'll have to try and get hold of a pixel to see for myself.

Experiences like Andy's comment is why I won't go with Mac. I don't have many issues. I use a bluetooth keyboard Called the Hable one. It works wonderfully. That being said you should have excellent accessibility if you use a touch screen braille display or a keyboard.

Hi, regarding to your debate I have moved to Windows for 5 years and happy with that.
First, In Heebrew Mack doesn't support well, there are problems with Braille support, with reading an writing from left to right.
I have a computer with Windows, and I use Jaws for my job and my private life.
There is a better braille support, better reading and writing support and I love it.
I have several friends have them Mac computer and they are sefered.
I am a transcriber and I decided to move to Windows.
I have a surface Leptop 4 and I'm satisfy from it.
You can talk to me privately and I'll happy to help you as I can.

Regarding your comments for the possible switch to the android side of things, for phone access, that is actually something I've never considered. Although we have issues from time to time on our phones, so much of my life is wrapped up with that device, I simply never even thought about switching to the android platform, as I don't see it's necessary. Also, some thing I've been thinking about, I believe that Apple and Microsoft are going to start communicating more effectively, so that the whole handoff continuity thing can cover both sides of the railroad tracks, if you will. I don't know that there will be a lot of cross integration like that, but I think this handoff thing will catch fire, so that if I am texting on my phone, and want to continue it on my Windows PC, then the handoff thing will be a solution. I have not read anything about this, it's just something that I thought. It will be interesting.

As good as Windows is, there are problems there too. The apps on the Windows store are pathetic in terms of a11y. Even if you decide to buy an app there, you have to jump hoops paying with a credit card. Not a smooth experience like the appstore we are used to here. Windows 11 is getting the feature to receive messages and notifications from the Iphone. Orbit is getting ready to ship a a Windows 11 laptop with a 40-cell braille display combined in 2024.

For me, as someone who owns both a Mac and Windows PC, I can tell you things about both platforms that I like and dislike.

On macOS, I like the integration with my iPhone, being able to answer and receive calls and text messages, and natively sync files and settings via iCloud. I use Pages for my admittedly basic word processing needs, and I like not having to subscribe or buy a license to use it, as opposed to Microsoft Word on Windows.

However, while I broadly like the stability and relative ease of use of macOS, the bugs and quirks of VoiceOver can be very frustrating. Furthermore, being built into the operating system, there's no saying how long a given accessibility bug will persist, with some lasting for years. This is where JAWS and NVDA outshine VoiceOver in my opinion, as while I am no fan of Windows, I like how predictable the third-party screenreaders behave.

In short, with macOS, I like the operating system, but feel that VoiceOver often gets in the way. Conversely, with Windows, I like the ecosystem of third-party screenreaders, but feel the operating system often gets in the way. When it comes to desktop computing, I think you're really just picking your poison and hoping for the best.

I go more in-depth with these opinions in this AppleVis blog post from May 2022, which aside from some improvements to VoiceOver performance and the addition of new information commands, still largely holds up.

I am a voiceover user on Mac OS (I do all of my full-time software development work on a Mac as well). and I won’t want to go back to Windows ever if I had a choice. I am not experiencing any of the issues you mentioned so maybe consider upgrading to a newer Mac if you are already comfortable using Mac OS? Both my personal and work Macbooks are apple silicon machines (M1 and M1-Max) so not sure if Intel has gotten worse since 2022 when I used a 2017 Intel macbook pro. I wrote a post a while ago after I had a call with another developer who was busy losing his vision and had to get comfortable with VO as the company he worked for only gave out macs that might be of some use to you.

link:
https://www.applevis.com/forum/macos-mac-apps/tips-power-usersanyone-does-more-read-emailslight-web-browsing-be-more

I’m not sure why so many people are saying VO is getting worse? In my experience it’s been the other way around with nice/useful features being added e.g. Eloquence now being an option since Ventura…

The only feature I miss from NVDA while browsing in safari is the ability to press n to jump to the text of any article/comment without having to move over lots of other elements.

Ultimately, the question is whether, given your needs and use cases, you can better work around or tolerate the Mac OS bugs or the Windows bugs.

For example, I've lost work to Windows application crashes, but not to Mac OS crashes. Your experience may be different, of course. Sometimes, switching operating systems can work around an accessibility issue. It's easy for me: I have an Apple Silicon Mac and an Intel machine running Windows and Linux both on the desk here, so I can simply move from one to the other. Having multiple operating systems is a kind of insurance policy. If there's a serious issue with one, I can turn to another. If using a desktop or laptop system for hours every day is important to your work (education, employment, voluntary work, or whatever it may be), then it's worth having two, and they could just as well be different.

Even expensive Windows hardware doesn't keep up with MacBook Pro or air in efficiency. Overall battery life and fan noise are two ways. Of course you can put 2000 in and get something quiet if you're doing simple tasks but if you start stressing the computer your going to hear it. Also Bio's issues still persist on Windows machines which we still don't have access to. It's fine if you like Windows nothing wrong with that just stating my opinions on why it's hard for me to look at it seriously. I can run full Mac and a virtually machine and my computer never sweats at all.

@Joe You said: "Of course you can put 2000 in and get something quiet if you're doing simple tasks but if you start stressing the computer your going to hear it."
Again, let me humbly disagree. I put around $1000 or maybe a tad more in about 3 years ago and currently have Windows 11 Pro 22 H2. I do lots of audio-editing/mixing, word-processing, browsing, etc. But I rarely, really rarely, get fan noise or hotness. Granted, my battery life might not be as shining as those of Macs, but this is a desk/home-bound laptop and I rarely take it out. I think we should put misconceptions aside while comparing both sides. And no, I can't put up with VO's shortcomings on the Mac only because the Mac is quieter or only because it has a more beautiful/pleasing body or only because it offers better battery life.

Sadly though I can’t use a machine without a stable reliable and most important of all, functional screen reader. I prefer the Mac in every way, hardware and OS. It’s just better or at least appeals to me more. I just can’t deal with the Christmas cracker screen reader. It doesn’t matter how great the hardware is, how nice the OS is to use, how much I want the continuity features. If I can’t get things done without a visit to accident and emergency to get stitches in my head from banging it against the wall every day then I just have to face reality and move to where I can get stuff done.

I have had only bad experiences with Windows. It was the reason why I wasn’t able to switch to computer when I was studying in high school. Then I got my MacBook Air and everything has been great so far. I was finally able to study in the school with my MacBook.

The hardware has no equal. Software! Well depend on the person. Windows is much better but each person has own view. I do not recall any major upgrate of VO since it was release. JAWS get updates every 3 months and their support is much better.

Hi @Amir truthfully, I've never found a Windows PC that can do all the things I wanted to do seamlessly. The Mac does offer this option. I can have it families, I can have great battery life, and I can have great speakers. I can usually find some thing that has one or two of these but all three has been very difficult. Ultimately though I'm not trying to switch to Windows and I guess that may be the difference. I'm OK with the Mac because I can run macOS and windows OS on the same machine without too much trouble. I look at these things as tools and being able to have all the tools on one device is super nice. I don't admittedly check out every Windows device out there, but reading reviews for the three things I mentioned most Youtubers mentioned just getting the Mac and that no windows machine compares. I tend to think that they're right because I've never heard a Windows device that has all three. The closest that someone intrigues me that's coming out soon is the yoga pro 9I slim.

I have been using a Mac since 2014, and prior to that, before I retired, I used Windows with JAWS. I currently have a 2020 M1 MacBook Air. I have never considered going back to Windows. I use my Mac for handling emails, surfing the web, writing reports and other documents using Pages and TextEdit, organizing finances and other tasks with Numbers, creating and editing playlists with Music, among other things. In my experience, Voiceover has not deteriorated. Sure, there are annoying bugs, but I can easily work around these. I find, with each update, some bugs are fixed, and new ones appear. Also, Voiceover has added features with each update. To date, I have never encountered a show-stopper.
I can't speak for Windows now, but, when I used it prior to 2014, it was very accessible with JAWS, but it also had annoying bugs. It really is a matter of choice. Both systems are accessible, but I don't think you will find any platform without any bugs.
I can't speak to Braille support because I only use Voiceover.
Finally, I have tried using Windows with NVDA recently, and I found it very difficult. I imagine this was primarily because I was using it on an older laptop, and I lost all my muscle memory for how to do things.
This is my two cents worth. Hope this helps.

This is something it seems to me only you can decide. My approach has always been use whatever works for the job you need to get done. I use Windows xx for what I need to do if it works best. I use Mac most of the time and am very pleased with it. Yes, there are accessiblity issues, but over the past thirty-seven years; how hasn't that always been a problem in computing.
I'm very peased with what apple has done; and this includes using my iDevices and computers in a production environment for work. Safari pauses on sites and at least it doesn't lock up everything saying "busy" over and over again. It's a fact of life, that some sites are slow to load (this applies for sighted people as well) due to having to load html, style-sheets, javascript, images and maybe even inline-assembler code. There can be as many as 40 or 50 tcp sockets being opened when loading some sites, and that is nuts.
On windows I've taken to using narrator; it's the best for most things, and it still makes me crazy to have to pay $1200 or whatever it is to use my computer. Especially now that jaws is always falling behind when microsoft puts out significant updates; that there's still that out of focus problem that has cursed jaws since its inception. I'd suggest using narrator and (yes, there are better voices than eloquence voices); it seems to me that some of us like to stick with what we've grown used to for a couple of decades and there can't possibly anything better. Actually, I use linux most of the time...
I think the accent voice is the best, but then I used it for ten or more years and it was screaming fast >800 wpm if you ran it at full speed. :-)
I like alex and siri voices and have not seen the problems some have mentioned with the latest macos on my recently acquired m2 8/10/20 core machine. There are wonderful very much more natural sounding voices for narrator and microsoft has done a very nice job. It's the case for for mail, word other of their software and web-sites narrator is simply the best.
So in the end: the thing comes down to; what are you trying to do and what will work best for doing that function(s) and then get the equipment. It worries me a bit that some people complain about some environment and they haaven't really taken the time to truly learn how to use it and it isn't that the thing is worse or not good; it's really that I'm comfortable with my previous world.
My approach is, (and this is what we always do at work when we get new devices, routers, switches, computers and anything else); we read the documentation (often evenbefore the product arives) so we truly can get into using it quickly, efficiently and properly.

I have a hard time accepting that a graphical interface is an excuse for overly complicated keyboard commands and screen reader functions. Windows is a graphical interface designed to work with a mouse, and it always has been: "point and click." A whole slue of sighted people don't even know there are keyboard commands for Windows, and the most basic of the commands mainly do what the mouse is doing, move the pointer to an item and activate the item.
On the hardware, I keep reading comments about the Mac that you need to frequently upgrade to a new Mac to use the latest OS, especially with VO. That really rubs me the wrong way when relating to premium hardware. I'm as cheap as I can get away with when it comes to disposable items, and now that Mac is non-Intel, that sounds like what we're talking about.

I have been using a mac for years, and its not complicated, once you get used to it, like any other thing. I mean, depending on where your coming from, it anything can be complicated. Starting to learn how to use a phone? Complicated. Beeing used to one os and then suddenly having to learn another?Yeah, that's complicated. Switching from windows to mac or vise versa and having to relearn every single thing you knew and where used to for the last decade? Again, that's complicated. Point is, its not that the mac is complicated, its just a matter of getting used to it, is all. I mean since mac os el capitan, interactive with things is optional, if you don't like it, disable it. Its true that there are bugs with voiceover but no showstoppers to be honest. Then again, which bug is a showstopper will depend on who you ask, as again this is subjective, with no definitive answer. Ferthermore, as others have pointed out, I don't want to pay over 1200$ just to access my computer because the $1200 is the best option. I do use windows on a vertual machine with nvda, but for games, nothing more. Al my work etc, I do it on mac without any problem. In the end its up to you what computer do you want to go for, but neither os is better than the other, both have their bugs their ups and downs, their learning curve, but its up to you.

I used Macs for over a decade and complicated wasn’t ever my problem. It was always bugs and general frustration. It’s actually been complicated to go back to JAWS but it’s worth the learning curve because everything I do is just so frustration free once I’ve re-learned the mountain of hot keys. JAWS isn’t perfect. Very occasionally it stops speaking which is annoying but easily fixed. I wanted to stay on Mac but just couldn’t do it. Safari is the biggest car crash for me. I just can’t get anything done without wanting to end my life. Lol. For people doing great with Mac I’m jealous I couldn’t stick it out because maybe Apple will get their stuff together and resolve the main frustrations but I’ve been waiting for years now. It’s just not acceptable or funny and I found a solution. It’s not my ideal choice but it works.

The Oliver Kennett used the phrase, "convoluted an bloated," to describe Voice Over on the Mac. It's very confusing to read through the comments about the Mac. and know whether Voice Over on MacOS is the most horrible thing in the world, or the most wonderful screen reader ever created.
I don't mind learning new ways of doing something, and if the Mac with Voice Over now requires fewer key combinations to do basic functions, then I'll try to ignore some of the negative comments.
I remember that screen reader for Crome added a additional mode that did away with the tedious key combination and extra key presses,, like control/alt, H, then H to move to the next heading, or something like that. Why do you want me to do all that extra stuff, extra key presses and combinations when most other screen readers only need one key, or simply one of the arrow keys to get there and do the job?

so I use both. Windows is better for some things, and macos is better for others. I don’t have a mac which can run Ventura but Monterey does what I need. I would of course like to get a newer Mac, but can’t afford it. Apple clearly started listening to VoiceOver users prominently last year, but the people think they never listen. there are not enough beta testers for apple platforms, that is why windows seems to be the be all and end all for most people, at least on this thread, if more would beta test, report bugs, and find workarounds until said bugs are fixt, more beta testers would make the VoiceOver experience better for everyone. VoiceOver has its share of bugs, but JAWS and NVDA do to. it depends if you want to help improve VoiceOver, so it has fewer bugs, or go to windows cause that’s what most people know. I’d get a new mac if i could, but I see nothing wrong with using both. yeah, JAWS has a public beta every year, but after, it’s not known to me, how to report bugs, and apple makes it easy and sympol. so it all comes down to what bugs you want to trade for the other. JAWS has a bug of freezing, and that still persists. so pick your poison!

As many have said here, hope you heard it loud and clear, do what's best for you! One thing I know for a fact that, whatever screen reader / OS you choose, there will be issues, there will be pain and things to learn and get used to. This will probably not go away regardless what you choose. So, figure out your priorities and pick the tech that will help you accomplish them in the best way possible.
VoiceOver does get annoying at times, no doubt about it, but it's still worth for me to keep my Mac because of the music applications I use. Also, the good-quality hardware obviously helps!
I wonder if there is a way for you to get the laptop with Windows, try it out for a number of days, and then return if you are not happy with the result?

I think it's a great idea, to select a Windows laptop, take it home, set it up, get yourself involved with learning the operating system, and jaws or NVDA. The problem with this, however, is that by the time the trial period is over with, there will not have been enough time elapsed, in order to successfully complete a one time walkthrough of the lessons that jaws includes, so that you can learn jaws and windows, simultaneously. So although doing a trial thing is definitely out there for you, I don't think they'll be enough time commitment, to do a proper assessment, and switch away from one operating system, in order to learn another. Just my thoughts.

I learned Windows "on the job", as it were, having taken up a position that heavily involved Microsoft applications. As I recall, I took a laptop home over a couple of weekends to extend my knowledge.

However, at that point, I was already experienced in Linux (both command line and graphical desktop), Mac OS, iOS and Android. So learning another was just a matter of details.

Although it is possible to gain proficiency in an operating system quickly, particularly if you're technically knowledgeable and experienced, I would recommend not doing it under pressure. There might be a disability organization or other entity that would let you borrow one for a month.

I switched from Windows to macOS in 2021. Before that, I've been using JAWS on Windows XP since 2007, then Windows 7, Windows 8.1, and finally Windows 10. While I can't say anything about NVDA, I'd like to briefly post my thoughts here regarding JAWS and Windows, and VoiceOver and macOS:

JAWS and Windows
Over the years, Windows has unfortunately become a more and more bloated system for me. The nesting of menus (especially those ribbon menus), the strange concept of two preference panels (Control Panel and Settings), and the often unintuitive features have caused me increasing frustration. I always had to use Google for everything because the setting could no longer be found or it was only accessible via Execute (CTRL-R) via some command.
Up to and including Windows 7, this was not the case, but I personally had the best experiences with Windows XP, because the system was coherent there.
Similar experiences as with the operating system itself I had to make with JAWS in the last years. The screen reader became more and more sluggish (for example in mentioned ribbon menus), in conversation lists in Outlook (MS 365) and new concepts of the operating system are not implemented in many places (For example UWP-apps from the store or new UI views for dialogs).
Examples:
- Dialogs in apps: These are often only readable via a strange keyboard shortcut (e.g. JAWS-B, if I remember correctly), with TAB or the arrow keys you can only jump to the buttons OK or Cancel (or how the buttons are named) but not to the dialog text. Quite often the touch cursor also helps. For me, there is nothing of the simplicity praised here - especially by @Dennis Long. Rather the opposite is the case. Even worse: Often you have to navigate forever through programs with the TAB key to find an element. This doesn't give you any idea of the app or any structure (example: Zoom Meetings). In addition, even the simplest operating system functions like moving apps in the task bar are not possible with JAWS. I actually got the answer in the JAWS for Windows support mailing list: I should just delete all apps and add new ones in the desired order - there is no other way. These were all reasons for me to switch to macOS.

VoiceOver and macOS
In contrast to Windows, the Mac offers a more coherent OS: Settings are clearly structured in the apps with CMD comma, and system settings can be found in the System Settings. I therefore find the use of the entire operating system much more intuitive. VoiceOver also follows this concept in my opinion. As has been mentioned here, many also seem to try to apply the Windows concept one-by-one to the Mac, but it doesn't work. Every operating system and screen reader works differently, and every new technology will have its learning curve. But many don't even want to get into it, they simply realize macOS is different, so it's not good or efficient and productive to use. But back to VoiceOver: For me, the screen reader has the enormous advantage that I can use it to navigate program windows in a structured way and thus actually get an impression of where to find something. Instead of just drumming wildly on the TAB key, I know right away where to find something on the Mac. A program usually consists of a toolbar, a sidebar on the left, and a sidebar on the right. At the top there is the menu bar. With VoiceOver, I don't have to navigate through the toolbar to get to the conversation list in the Mail app, for example.
The Windows equivalent here would probably be the F6 key, which jumps between the areas of an app, but that hasn't really worked reliably for me since Windows 8.1, and you really have to internalize which tricks of JAWS you can use to get ahead at a specific point in a specific app. I find that significantly more complex than VoiceOver on the Mac where you only have to remember the navigation commands VO-right arrow/left arrow/space or, one-handed with quick nav, left/right arrow and up+down arrow together for activating something. With VoiceOver, it's the same for every app: If I want to enter an area, such as a sidebar, toolbar, or other area, I interact with it. If I want to leave the area and go to another one, I stop the interaction. However, you never have to interact with all areas, but only with the one in which you want to do something. At first glance, the UI of a program is thus much clearer and easier to navigate. Once you have internalized this, the operation of each app is almost identical and much more intuitive than using any application with JAWS on Windows. In addition to that, you have the advantage that VoiceOver is even integrated into the base system of the Apple Silicon computers, which even allows a complete reformatting of the system volume and thus also a reinstallation of the system without sighted help. However, since this point should not be relevant for the actual work with the computer, I do not want to elaborate on this and also not present it as a big advantage.
Of course, there are disadvantages not only with Windows and JAWS, but also with VoiceOver and macOS. As already mentioned here, JAWS has the advantage of being a 3rd party screen reader. The company behind it concentrates exclusively on assistive technologies and bugs are thus fixed much faster. With VoiceOver, it can happen that an update ruins a complete workflow. Fortunately, I haven't had to make this experience myself so far. But once something is broken and buggy, it can last for a year or more - and that's a big problem.
In addition, VoiceOver also has some disadvantages as far as the web is concerned: Many websites nowadays are no longer generated with pure HTML and CSS, but are often Progressive Web Apps. The performance of VoiceOver in such web apps is anything but fluid, so I too clearly prefer the aforementioned problems with the non-intuitive and non-consistent operation with JAWS. Apple wanted to make significant improvements in this area and thus make VoiceOver more future-proof and competitive for the web of the future. Incidentally, the same also applies to Electron apps, e.g. Discord or Visual Studio Code. Electron is a framework for cross-platform apps, but it uses Chromium, among other things, for display. Electron apps are therefore - at least in the frontend - nothing more than progressive web apps, where the performance with VoiceOver leaves much to be desired.

So what's the right choice - Mac or Windows?
If you don't primarily use Progressive Web Apps and can come to terms with the fact that Apple is not an assistive technology manufacturer and that bugs may take longer to fix, I would definitely recommend a Mac. The operating system is much more intuitive and consistent to use with VoiceOver, but only if you really say goodbye to the previously internalized operating concept of Windows and treat the Mac as a different operating system and don't constantly try to compare it to Windows or try to transfer concepts from Windows to it.
I would recommend Windows if you need the computer for your daily work, for example, which does not allow you to adjust workflows because of possible bugs. In this case, however, one must be prepared to come to terms with the conditions of the operating system and JAWS, such as the, in my eyes, inconsistent operation.
In conclusion, it only remains for me to say: The perfect operating system does not exist, software is never perfect and every system has its advantages and disadvantages. Therefore, it is necessary to weigh between both systems with its peculiarities and then make your decision.

I agree with your thoughts but it’s the reliability of voiceover I can’t accept. I can’t help thinking our choices of screen readers are a bit like that South Park episode douche and turd. One way to look at this is its great to have choice and we’re perhaps lucky to be able to use technology at all but if you come at it from the other angle, we pay good money for compromised software. Apple stuff is expensive and VO is the alternative to the screen that we have to use and it’s very very far from perfect. JAWS is offensively expensive and no I don’t buy the limited market argument. Everything has a limited market, the people who want and are prepared to pay for it. What JAWS has is more like a captive market. Anyway Niether of the options are very good but I’m glad we at least have choice.

I like that you were specific in examples of using the two screen readers. It clears up some uneasy feelings about VO on Mac. The way you described the operation of Windows reminds me of the impression I was getting of the Mac. Although, that problem with VO and the Web sounds like a deal breaker for a lot of situations.
My primary OS is Linux, and has been since soon after Windows went... mushy in 8.X, but I'm fortunate enough to not require any Microsoft programs, or have found workarounds for them. Definitely not an OS I'd suggest for everyone.

One big advantage I see in the PC as opposed to the mac is that with the PC, cost of entry is much lower. You can get all kinds of stuff, from a $200 machine to something that costs as much, if not more than the mac. For example, I am currently using a Chuwi Gemibook Pro, which has a metal body, 8 gb ram, 256 gb ssd, but just a celeron processor, and while it is no power house, with NVDA running, it works very nicely, and I still don't have any of the problems on the web described here in this, and on other threads on the site. I had an m1 macbook air, and loved it, but sold as I had other financial needs at the time, and for my online radio station, everything is Windows based, and I just wasn't quite happy with virtual machine performance on the mac. With this laptop I am using now, it only ran me $250, but it's not half bad. Are there things I miss on the mac? Of course! Audio editting on the mac is a joy to do. I can still do it on Windows, but I miss Amadeus Pro. I also miss the easy access to pdf files via preview. But otherwise, I am perfectly fine on Windows. If you are lower income, you can easilly get either one of these lesser known brands, or a specked out older machine from another more well known brand, but for a very reasonable amount. Just something else to consider.

As someone who has never used a Mac ever, thank you for your elaborations within your post. I appreciate you taking the time, to explain some of the differences, similarities, and faults of both systems. I found your writing to be very informative and helpful. Thanks again for your time.