Why users/posters complain so much

I really want to understand what you mean but I can't? Sorry.

I think many of the frustrations people have, and rightly so, are that blind, DeafBlind, and low vision users are paying customers too... And yet, accessibility issues persist that would be fixed in very short order were they to affect the mass market.

Okay, I’m not exactly sure where you pulled that questionable MSRP from, but let’s assume it’s on the level for now. You claim that Samsung devices average out to $356 apiece—a figure that doesn’t really hold water, yet let’s move on. What’s being overlooked is that Samsung isn’t solely about flagships like Apple. They produce everything from the A-series, Tab-series, Z Flip, Fold, to the S-series. Their price points span from around $100–$200 up to $2,000, whereas Apple mostly sticks to flagships—the regular iPhone at $799, the Pro at $999, the Pro Max at roughly $1,199, plus an occasional SE. You simply can’t pit these on price alone.

Moreover, Android accessibility is a supreme mess compared to Apple’s unified ecosystem. Take ZDSR, for instance: it’s nearly impossible to find reliable sources or proper documentation, yet some users manage to make it work. Then there’s Samsung’s Voice Assistant, which—if memory serves—has been discontinued, leaving only Samsung’s TalkBack, which is basically a slightly modified version of Google’s TalkBack. If you want to ditch TalkBack altogether, you’re forced to hunt down the Commentary Screen Reader, available only through sketchy channels and at an extra cost. Seriously, who here wants to drop another $100 for advanced features when the free options should cover the basics?

Finally, the comparison suggesting that complaints should be aimed more at Apple than Samsung doesn’t hold up. And why single out Samsung in the first place? Competitors like Google Pixel, Xiaomi, Huawei, and OnePlus offer just as valid, if not superior, alternatives. The whole argument misses the mark.

I agree with Michael. I said as much in my applevis report card. We deserve the same priority as sighted users. If we are using a Braille display and there are issues if a sighted user had the touch screen flickering or it worked sometimes but not others would that update go out the door? No absolutely not.

I mention the mac.

For what it's worth, and I am not agreeing nor am I disagreeing with anyone here, but I only paid $400 US for my current iPhone, iPhone SE 2022. This was a brand new, factory sealed, product.
Again, just FYI for what it's worth. 🤷🏽‍♂️

As I said, iPhone SE, it’s $400, far as I know anyway, that’s the equivalent, or better, of your suggested androids

Plus I don’t know ifif you all are just not as adaptive as I am or unlucky when updating, but honestly 99.5% of the bugs you guys get I don’t get on my phone, iPhone 15 Pro Max running iOS 18.3

I think it's usually down to use case. We all use our devices in different ways. Some are light users, other heavy users, some use a wide array of apps and system level functions, others stick to just a couple of apps.

I very much agree that we don't get heard as much as sighted customers, which is unfair, but this is why the report card is such a great thing. It unifies our voices into something actionable and, dare I say it, there have been less bugs and more bug squashing since the report card was conceived.

There is an ideal world in which we have a choice of platform and hardware, just the same as sighted peers, but we don't live in that world, we live in a world of popularism as in, the more people shout, the more change will occur and more rapidly. This can be a good thing, of course, but it can also drown out voices such as our own.

Being blind, in my estimation, is a part time job. Learning how to use new equipment, completing tasks, reporting bugs, sifting through accessible and non-accessible items and apps, etc and so on, is far more time consuming than it is for sighted peers. It sucks, it's frustrating, but I'm certainly glad there is all of us lot supporting each other and that apple vis is here, as spicy as it might get some times.

Your last line is so true bro. And I am very good at this part time job.

Agree bugs are not addressed ASAP compare to sighted people issues. We will always be second class citizens regarding accessibility. Fact. Apple suppose to have someone that focus on accessibility but she must be taking naps and not dealing with the bugs or she is not listen to and is just a token to bring out every year when accessibility is mention and forgot. Believe her name is Sarah and she still working for Apple. AppleVis report that is out every year is not pay attention by Apple. If you think someone important on the apple CEO or close thinks about the annual report from AppleVis, I have a nice lake in Chicago, I can let you have for $5. Nice lake.

Let's not bring names and specific people into this. Personal attacks against someone only make us look pathetic and bring down the community. Why would you want to help someone who treats you that way?
As was mentioned, the person you mentioned is only one person, among a sea of hundreds. If you want to make change, then complaining on a forum isn't the way to do it. Go out into the real world. Show people at Apple what Apple devices are capable of. Show them the issues you're running into. Ask them to connect you with someone else at the company. Work your way across, work your way higher until you get results. If we were to all do this, we'd see progress. We'd educate at the same time. Because let's face it, most people, even these days, don't know what accessibility features exist. It's sad, but that's the world we live in. And only we can do something about it as the users of just some of these features.

Agreed to not pick out names. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes in a notoriously secretive company. People may be the face of a department but, more than likely, they are just as frustrated when they can't do their job due to internal issues.

The other point I wanted to raise is, yes, it would be great if we all reported bugs, went through the correct channels and, in our own way, raised our voices but, life is busy. I'd not expect everyone to do this. I report bugs here and there, but I'd not expect others to. Advocacy, on top of living with a disability, navigating life, working on projects and jobs etc, doesn't leave much time for such things. I think all we can do is remind people that:

accessibility@apple.com

is where you send your issues, being as clear as possible when describing and try to illustrate how the issue can be recreated.

it's a resource to use and it does benefit us all, but it is up to you if you do it and no shame if you don't. Pick your battles, live your life.

OK. Sorry about that but she is in charge or working regarding issues of accessibility.Take care all.

Look, accessibility is getting worse on all platforms and I'll die on that hill. I'm a hipocrit as we all are, it feels good to shout here and it's a lot harder to file bug reports that may or may not even be noticed in the pile. They're time consuming to document, you have to show the expected behavior without the bug and give reproduction steps which for whatever reason might just kill the project if the companies can't see the problem in their huge triage of probably thousands of cases where people probably didn't document the darn thing just the way they want. Then even when you do jump through the hoops just the right way there's no guarantee you'll be heard ... and, yeah, it's what we should do with all those disclaimers. I do it, sometimes well and sometimes not ... but it's a lot easier to just get the quick dopamine hit here. There are no good or better platforms any more, it's more a matter of what problems we can tolerate than what features we like or even need.

We must not forget that nvaccess apparently had rough beginning and they had to fight their way through for microsoft to ship these good accessibility api that are the backbone of all screen readers on windows. Personally as a matter of opinion and personal experience I'd say that on the windows side it's easy to get arrogant and to forget that accessibility is and will be a constent battle (I had personally forgotten that until I get my mac), which is slightly easier to notice with first party screen readers. Just think about it one second, we had mass lay offs and the market is still terrible now...

Love when other state report the bugs. I do so and always got the generic statement. "Thanks for your ..." Makes you wander if anyone reads them but just get one of those automatic respond from an AI thank you for doing so.

Maybe slightly off-topic, but there are carrier companies everywhere on the world who does discounts on iPhones and androids, if you are smart about it, you can land on some great deals.
I don’t know why some are going straight to Apple and paying $1200 for the latest iPhone Pro Max, when they can go to their carrier and get a discount for the same iPhone.
I was able to trade my brother‘s iPhone 12 Pro Max at T-Mobile and was able to get him the 16 pro max and only had to pay $550. Same with my current iPhone, I traded in my iPhone 7 for an iPhone 14 and I only had to pay $350 including taxes.
Now, I’m not saying that I’m broke, it’s just why should I pay more money for an iPhone that I can get at a cheaper price somewhere else.

Thank you for proving my point. It's easier and it makes you feel good, in the short term. But it doesn't sollve anything.
But note I wasn't talking about filing bug reports, but rather showing other people how screen readers work. I know not everyone can do it, but imagine all the noise we would make collectively if everyone who simply enjoyed complaining on a forum took the time to try something more productive.

Like the new idea that JAWS doing every year. Getting people to make suggestion for new features. Maybe Apple should do it also.

When you start getting old, you have to complain... You might not get the chance later on. Even worse, you might forget to...
I like that an iPhone, for the most part, operates the same as some other iPhone running the same version. I could probably pick an old one up and use it, or be crawling through the desert, find an iPhone and know how to use it.
The Android smorgasbord scares me. I don't know what I would want, and I don't know if I could get what I need.

There you go.

I would like to start out by saying that I think it's awesome that most people have choices in what technology they want to use. If, for whatever reason, people don't want to use Apple products, no one is forcing them to do so. For myself, though, I have no interest in android. To be fair, perhaps some of my android knowledge is out of date, but I still think most of my issues with it are valid. With Apple, everything is consistent. I could, for example, run Voiceover on my best friend's phone to help her set something up if she wanted me to. With android, there are so many manufacturers, and each of them has their own version of android to 1 degree or another, so there's at least a chance that things won't work the same from one device to another. Similarly, there's no consistent update schedule with android that I'm aware of, so again, it's a lack of consistency. Last, but not least, I've tried using android on several occasions, and to me, it just seemed a lot more complicated and confusing than iOS. Along those lines, the few times I've heard someone using an android device with talkback, it seemed as though it took them much longer to accomplish the same tasks I could do in half the time with voiceover. Is VO perfect? Far from it! There are annoying little bugs popping up constantly, but I've learned how to just work around most of them. Yes, Apple needs to fix long-standing bugs, but at least in my mind, Android isn't the answer.

We complain about apple beta program but at least all core software and feature *generally speaking* (ai aside) are available globally to test whereas talkback beta is still limited to select countries where android isn't even dominant and iphone is which is the most ridiculous thing I've learned from google. So yeah...

If you are adventurous enough to use a beta absolutely file bugs as you find them. Don't assume it is already filed. Every week there is a new beta if it isn't fixed go into your previous feedback it and say this is not fixed as of build
1234 as an example.
Keep doing this until it is fixed.
If you aren't on a beta:
send an email to
accessibility@apple.com
I can tell you I've had bugs fixed using both methods.

One of the reasons why people do this, because yeah, carriers have great deals but... they have, drawbacks. I.e, sim restriction, which when you buy the phone from say apple etc, you don't get. I mean yeah its more expencive in the short term but, in the long term even if your carrier has a great deal, it'll come with strings attached such as sim lock which won't get removed until you either pay the phone in full and this usually takes a few years depending on your contract. But yeah that's one of the reasons why.

That is certainly true. However, if somebody is happy with their current cellular provider, should that matter? For example, I have been with my Cellular provider since 2016. In fact they currently provide both my cellular service, and my home Internet, as I am now on cellular broadband. They can sim lock me until the sky falls down.
I am quite happy with my service. :-)

You're still paying full price for your phone through your carrier, it's just over a longer period. I think it's important people know this before diving in and purchasing something that, on the surface, seems cheaper. There are other drawbacks as, as Brian says.

I now am able to buy my phone outright with trade in and have a choice of provider. My intent, over time, is to minimise any pay back schemes for hardware so future me has more money month by month.

This isn't everyone's choice, it might not be possible for some but, you're not getting the phone cheaper when you buy it on contract, you are paying for it in your monthly bill and you are locked in for the duration of your contract.

On the point of being locked to a provider, I don't believe this is done any more, at least, it's not here in the UK.

This is a good point out. It is absolutely valid.

Hi,
Agree with Oliver about pricing. I would rather buy my phone outright than get into one of those contracts. I've heard those can cost up to £60 a month! As for bugs and so on, from my own experiences and from what I read on Applevis, the older people's devices, the more problematic and more frequent the bugs are. I'm on an iPhone 12mini and iOS 18.3, and eversince iOS 18, I've had the weird app library bug. It's not a showstopper, but it's annoying enough for me to remember when reading this topic. I still wouldn't switch to Android though. The iPhone still does everything I need it to efficiently.

I get that. I have no problems with my carrier myself as well but, given I have 2 sims... A locked phone didn't work for me. I.e, when I was in college, got my second sim, a US line and given we purchaced the phone with atnt directly, the phone was of course locked which... Meant me having 2 phones on me, one for the US and another one for when I came back to my home country which... I mean if it works for some great but, for me it wasn't a good solution. It all depends, however. If your just in one country and don't say travel back and forth to other countries having the phone locked doesn't make much differense as just one sim but, when you do and have more than one sim... Its a different matter.

Hi,
Yeah, we don't seem to have locked phones here in the UK these days. Oliver confirmed what I just thought. Locked phones really are a problem if you travel and need to use another sim in another country. When I was studying abroad in the mid 2000s it really was a problem. In the end I bought a phone online, then I could have an unlocked phone and put any sim in it.

Fortunately Canada passed a law a while ago to forbid carrier locking altogether. US will never do that because it's us.

Keep in mind that getting a phone through your carrier likely means that, while you're paying it off, you're likely also paying interest on top of the phone's actual asking price.

I do buy my phones through my carrier, but not in the way you are talking about.
I walk into the carrier branch store with saved up money and pay full price. The next day, I start saving up for a new phone. The people at the carrier store do the set up of the phone, like moving all the stuff from the old phone, applying a screen protector if I get one, getting a new case and connecting it to their system with the phone number and all the stuff I don't know how to do on my own, or might be a hassle.
No idea if it's better or worse of a deal that way, but I'm not owing anybody money for the phone, just the monthly bill for the phone service.
Oops, I forgot to complain about something.

Hi,
That's actually interesting about your carrier. Here in the UK a friend of mine went into a general mobile phone shop, bought a phone, had an issue with some settings because it wasn't picking up the network, went back in to get some help, and the woman in the shop started complaining how it wasn't their job to sort out issues like that. She did sort it out but begrudgingly. It was a really poor attitude from someone working in a shop specialising in phones. I don't know what the individual carriers do here for customers. I do remember now back in 2017 I bought a new iPhone from one of the carriers here, and it definitely wasn't locked. I could put my sim card in from my own carrier, and it worked fine.

This is one of the large carriers. They take care of everything, even trained to be friendly, when you go in, and the people have always known enough about Voice Over to double tap on items, so they don't even turn VO off on the phones as they do the transfer/setup. The customer service actually works because I've never considered switching to a different carrier.

Nice thing about owning it you can get it unlock so if for some reason the company make you mad you can change to another ASAP.

Sorry for the distraction...

RAGE RAGE RAGE... FURY... RAGE. Life's not fair.

Better?

Just blame Oliver ... 😉✌️

I’ll keep my mouth shut though because the poor moderators will have to delete half the thread again.

I know a lot of bugs exist in both iOS and macOS. not to mention the niche devices such as AppleTV, WatchOS, etc.I will say that, for better or worse, I get absolute enjoyment out of my iPhone. It may be an older device, but I am finding that the newer the device, the more *issues* accompany it. Yet my supposedly outdated device runs very well, gets really decent battery life, and does not have , but maybe a fraction, if any of the currently reported bugs.
Does it have Apple Intelligence?
Nope.
Does it have LiDAR?
No again.
Does it have a rediculous amount of cameras?
Once again, nada.

Perhaps my device is not as *smart* as a 15 Pro/Max or 16 Pro/Max, but it gets the job done. I also have no problems with using a home button, and therefore have less *required* gestures to interact with the device.
I also do not have issues using OCR-related tools such as Be My Eyes, Seeing AI, Speakaboo, etc.

So in keeping with the original topic here, it seems like Apple does indeed monopolize prices on their *professional* grade hardware, yet their modified SE devices seem to provide a pleasant experience overall.

We get a solid product at an affordable price. We still are allowed most of the *luxuries* of the Apple ecosystem, such as Hand-off, iCloud, Apple Care, and a solidly built product.

If Apple provides an overpriced headache for the *privilege* of owning said product, and at the same time provides a genuinely enjoyable experience with a device that is considered by most to be *simplistic* in its overall design ... why the heck would anyone want a professional device by Apple?

Apple has more bugs than a NY hotel. Lucky me I do not have the many bugs that people are reporting. For me the only consistent bug is VO reading the time whenever I get notification. It was not on iOS 17 but it was before and came back again. Using 16 pro max and iOS 18.3.