Hi! I've asked here before whether it is worth switching from Jaws with Windows to Mac with voiceover. While some people have made it work, most people have not recommended the switch, especially if I have to do a lot of formatting.
Do you think Voiceover and Mac will ever be advanced enough to replace Jaws and Windows? Any developments that give hope this will happen?
I know this is mainly speculative, but my computer is dying and I need to get a new one soon. I love my iPhone and would love to just completely transition to Apple, but it doesn't seem like it is worth doing that at this point.
Comments
I don't think so
Hey guys,
I'm not sure if the Mac and VO will eve replace JAWS and Windows. The way it's looking for Apple at this moment anyways. Apple is wanting to move everything to iOS and iPadOS. While I would like for this to happen I don't see it happening anytime soon.
When it comes to the debate about VO and JAWS, here's my opinion on that subject.
I used a Mac back in 2015 while I was in college for audio production. I found it very hard to get my head around VO and time consuming to say the least. I did give it plenty of time. There were some great things I loved and still do about the Mac platform. However, I've switched into sourcing as a career, finding that audio producing and editing isn't for me to make money at during this time in my life. So, I'm now running a windows surface pro 6 laptop with JAWS. VO was hard to get my head around. To many interactions and various busy annoyances and such. With JAWS and Windows for that matter. I can get the screen reader out of the way and be productive. I ask something of the screen reader, for instance font attributes, headings, title of a window etc. and I get the information and move on. I don't have to wonder or figure out how to do things. Furthermore, the Mac is constantly changing with removing and adding new features. Yes, you can say the same about Windows however, the environmnet that is used pretty much stays the same. No programs and deleted in favor of new ones (iTunes.)
I don't think the Mac at least for me will ever replace a windows laptop and JAWS. I don't mind paying the annual license because I know I'll get support and get updates. VO doesn't seem to get any updates or TLC for many years for years now.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
At Blindwalker
Hi.
Blindwalker, I due have a question for ye.
You said that you are running a surface pro 6 tablet.
Have you used the touch screen on the device with either Jaws, NvDA or Narrator and can possibly tell me about your experiences.
I'm looking for a new computer and am not sure if I should dare investing in a detachable device.
Greetings Moritz.
in reply to Moritz
I've never used the touch screen with either screen reader you mentioned. Although I know it possible to do so. If you go for the surface laptop you get the touch screen as well. So, I decided to go with the surface pro because there was some keyboard flex in the surface laptop that i didn't want to deal with. Plus I just liked the design of the surface pro 6 device.
VoiceOver in Mac
VoiceOver on the Mac surpasses Jaws for Windows by a long shot. There's no comparison whatsoever.
Why VoiceOver On the Mac Surpasses Jaws
The following reasons are why VoiceOver on the Mac surpasses Jaws. First, the keyboard shortcuts and navigation with VoiceOver are simpler, compared to the arduous navigation of Jaws for Windows. Next, you can use the trackpad with VoiceOver. While Jaws supports navigation for touch screen Windows machines, the trackpad navigation in Windows with Jaws doesn't work particularly well. Neither does the touch navigation. Finally, VoiceOver can be scripted much more easily with Apple Script. You can also use Automator to simplify your workflow on the Mac, and X Code for developers to tailor your VoiceOver experience. I have been a Mac power user for roughly a decade, starting in 2010. I also have a friend who is also a Mac power user since the same time. For people that do audio production, it is much simpler on the Mac with VoiceOver, as is word processing, Safari, and other apps.
In short I echo Sarahâs words
In short I echo Sarahâs words, though from a Windows/GNU/Linux combo instead of a Mac/Windows one, considering the Orca screen reader is just as good.
FYI â The rest of this postâs gonna get a little random I think, thus bare with me here... Itâll make sense hopefully.
Not sure how many folks are using a screen reader on Windows 7 these days (or Windows 8.1 for that matter,) most of the sighted is going âWindows 10â as stated from the linked article below. Whether blind folks do the same, is unsure.
https://wccftech.com/users-leave-windows-7-2-5-months-deadline/
If you are a Windows âAudio Gamerâ like me, no way I could switch to a Macintosh full time, let alone switching to Linux full time.
Music/sound production? That debate (regardless if youâre blind or not) will never end.
NB. This music/sound editing sub-talk could be a separate thread really...
Quick Windows Sequencer on Windows vs Logic on Macintosh. Of course ya got â REAPERâ on both platforms.
As for making music on Linux since I brought it up? Have a look at
https://kyle.tk/music.php
, and give Kyle your feedback! Ya donât need Windows or Mac to make good music.
And with all that being said (besides more users should not be afraid of using the terminal just to get work done faster), I conclude this posting.
Thanks for reading!
PS. If youâre wondering, âWhy all that Linux Talk!â Macintosh is technically a âUnixâ operating system, and Linux itself is âUnix-Like.â
Mac/Windows Debate
Hi, Trenton. Thanks for your comment. You're awesome, so what I'm about to say has nothing to do with you, but a pervasive attitude I have noticed from other AppleVis users. AppleVis is a place for people to get help and support from other Apple users on using Apple products. However, so many people use this platform to bash Apple and its product line. If you like other platforms better, that's cool, but AppleVis isn't the place for that. AppleVis isn't a place for people to whine about how much Apple sucks. It is a place to get help and support from other users. I joined AppleVis specifically to help other Apple users. While I know how to use other platforms, I won't discuss that here, as this is an Apple only website. It's also worth noting that Apple does review the forum posts and comments on this website, since this is the largest congregation of blind people who use Apple products, and AppleVis has a sizable rapport and influence. Regarding the comments on audio gaming, I am not really much of a gamer, and I know a lot of blind people are. I want to see more blind people using their technology skills to advance themselves economically. There are people like Michael Babcock of the Your Own Pay podcast yourownpay.com that are doing that, but we need more blind entrepreneurs and professionals giving advice and support to other blind people on how to use their technological skills professionally. For audio production, check out accessmtech.com and also andrelouis.com Anyone else who wants to provide other helpful links may also post them in the replies.
Telling someone the flaws in a product is not a bad thing.
The problem with that line of thinking is, people don't get honest answers to their questions. For example, if someone had warnned me that braille support wasn't as well done on the mac as on the iPhone, I might not have bought a Mac. I don't think it is right to give someone the wrong impression of how something works. Apple products are not cheap, and it is reasonable to let someone know what they can expect from a product.
In regards to people from Appple looking at this site, I hope they do, and I hope they take some of the complaints and fix the problems.
Bashing
While bashing surely doesnât solve anything. Pointing out failures most certainly does. Especially when it relates to accessibility issues that have and continue from release to release. Pointing that out is supporting the community.
If you donât feel you suffer issues... Good for you. Your products are magical unicorns for sure.
I do agree that we also empower each other to use tools to the best of their abilities.
As for Apple. Remember they have stated Accessibility is a human right. They have also used the slogan It Just Works. While I donât think Accessibility isnât important to them... I also feel it isnât as high on priorities as it once was. Those teams seem to be spread rather thin. With unrealistic timelines.
Replacing JAWS
I couldn't say whether the mac would replace JAWS but the fact that there are free screenreaders forces Freedom Scientific to continue to make a case why JAWS is better. I used JAWS for over 20 years in my previous job and neither NVDA nor the mac were options. I am now an accessibility tester and primarily use NVDA. I was initially reluctant to use NVDA as there were some serious issues using it with Braille. These issues have been resolved. I'm satisfied with NVDA to the point where I have let my JAWS software maintenance agreement lapse and don't see the need to renew it. I could justify JAWS only if I needed to use applications requiring terminal emulation to an IBM mainframe which NVDA currently doesn't support.
I also use an iPhone and for most tasks prefer it to a Windows computer. No need to memorize and use numerous keyboard shortcuts when i can use the same gestures in most apps. The iOS interface is consistent and more intuitive. I asked in another post today if i should switch to the mac from Windows and am anxious to see what people will say.
I think the trend is toward free software which is built into the operating system. Whether NVDA will be accepted in an employment environment is an open question. I think apple will be in a good position with regard to accessibility for a long time. The hardware is good and VoiceOver keeps advancing. Despite the recent problems with braille support, I think they will eventually be fixed. The only drawback I can see with a mac is the price. You might be able to find a used mac and the computers are very durable. I suggest you give NVDA a try and also get your hands on a mac so you can determine what meets your needs.
Status of JAWS
As I said in another post it is going to be harder and harder for Freedom Scientific to persuade people to use JAWS even with the annual subscription model. I abandoned JAWS for many reasons and see NVDA as a more practical solution. I feel the same way about VoiceOver despite the recent issues with Braille support. With VoiceOver I can use apps instead of having to navigate complicated websites. Cases in point where I prefer an app include Facebook and the Chase mobile app. I can also see where things are located on the screen when I use my iPhone in a way I can't do with Windows. I haven't tried Windows touch gestures so it would be an interesting comparison. Some people like the Surface computers because they are more like iOS. I'm happy with my windows computer and see no need to get a Surface.
If I want to explore by touch I'll stick with my iPhone. I don't consider Android a viable option. TalkBack and BrailleBack can't hold a candle to VoiceOver despite what people say on the eyes-free Google group.
I bought a MacBook a few
I bought a MacBook a few months ago and have been using it at school and home and pretty much everywhere. It's a wonderful piece of hardware and Voiceover is decent. It's good, really, but it's not NVDA.
To answer your question in a word. No.
Long version is Voiceover for Mac just has too many quirks and bugs. It's nice that you don't need the numpad as much with NVDA but the extra cash isn't worth it. The battery life and audio of the 16-inch is great. The keyboard is still kinda meh, and the touchbar is a royal pain when booted into Windows. Braille support also has serious problems on Mac, as I recently found out firsthand with several days'-worth of troubleshooting and sanity checks on a Focus display. Kind of a big problem since I need Braille for maths and coding. I think it's a driver problem but in any case I'm helpless to fix it... and apparently everyone but me knew it's been having problems. That's nice.
So what's so nice about Mac? iMovie and Final Cut, basically. There isn't much value in going Mac if you're not interested in professional apps like FCP or Logic, IMO. You would probably be better served by an iPad if you wanted a laptop with Apple software and that would give you access to the glut of accessible iOS apps that are recommended on here.
Do I regret buying the most expensive MacBook? No. It's a wonderful machine and an absolute pleasure to use. That being said, it may very well become one of the few pieces of hardware I sell before I trash it or wear it out, especially if Braille keeps giving me this many problems. Most people here say good things about Braille on iOS.
I have an IPad Mini 5th gen I
mac verses jaws
To me, so many things on the Mac are more logical and easier to use than windows. Sadly though, Windows accessibility seems to be growing while the mac seems to lag. As pointed out above we can't do anything with PDF documents.
I'll try getting my hands on a surface.
Hi.
I'm currently trying to get my hands on a surface book part because I like the design, durability and options it has regarding CPU and storage.
I'm also pritty interested in how well the touch screen works with NVDA, Jaws and Narrator, test and audio demos are sadly not really existant in the blind comunity and those who have touch screen devices never use their touchscreens which keeps me wondering, why do people buy windows touch screen devices if they don't get used anyway.
Greetings Moritz.
In my case, I like how lite
In my case, I like how lite the surface is.
My old laptop was getting old and slow, and while it was still portable, it's also heavier to carry.
Let's just say we've come a long way in 10 years.
NVDA
It is nice but is not jaws. I use it for a while but is not jaws. It is true anything that is free is OK but if you want something good you need to pay. No issues. Mac is nice toy but is not worth the headache.
No
Hi. While I have been using an iPhone since 2013 and love apple I don't think mac will ever replace Voice Over. I have been using JAWS for a little over 15 years now and also use MS word quite a bit. I love Apple iPhones but am too used to JAWS to switch to a mac.
Windows VS Mac
Personally, I began using a MacBook because I was sick of the clunkiness of maintaining a Windows system. Now, I use all Apple products and because I float between Zoom, Color invert & Voiceover I will never go back to Windows. I cannot get all the features as easily in that environment. Additionally, I can float between my Apple devices very easily with iCloud. But on a global scale, no I doubt Mac will ever replace Windows. Iâll just ask for a more universal way of saving/converting documents.
I can float easily between
I can float easily between mac and windows, do it every day for work. I use NVDA and golden curser will save me a headache when it comes to moving around. Will the mac ever replace windows, maybe not but it really does keep getting better, especially in terms of terminal stuff. Where else can I type brew install pandoc and have it happen?
VoiceOver on the Mac versus Jaws for windows
Hi I'm a user of both windows and MacOS10 and windows10 under bootcamp I can't say that VoiceOver will replace Jaws 100% butt what I will tell you is this as time and time goes by it's going to be a lot more difficult for Freedom Scientific to make the case as to why we should keep using Jaws.
And now with it's annual subscription model and different editions of Jaws it's going to be so difficult especially as the latest WebAIM survey conducted found that their are more NVDA users than their are Jaws users sure some people could argue by saying Ahmed Jaws has a larger market share than the other Screen Readers you have mentioned.
To sum up NVDA is about to take Jaws spot because NVDA is a free and open sourced alternative to Jaws which could do 99% of what Jaws can as I said earlier in the post it's going to be a lot harder for the folks at VFO to make the case as two why we should be locked into the Jaws Screenreader environment when their are clearly statistics that prove otherwise.
Operating systems
Hi I also do use both in fact I find a lot of convenience in the fact that I'm able to carry just one computer with me wherever I go so I use MacOS and VoiceOVER when I want to send Email messages or even read books.
During the summer semester at MCTC both operating systems installed on my Mac and this opens up a lot of opportunities for me as the User I could switch to Windows10 and use Jaws NVDA or Narrator or I could switch to MacOS10 and use VoiceOVER whenever and wherever I want.
I basically relied a big chunk of my High school years and college freshmen year using a Mac with VoiceOVER. It wasn't until I started taking to summer courses that's when I found out that Windows was required for one of my ITEC courses that I took in the summer along side an American and Government Politics course at MCTC.
Windows10 was install on my MacBook after it was installed my mother than told me Ahmed the TouchBar doesn't work with Windows10. After
I used Narrator on the Windows side I was proven wrong because before Windows10 was installed on my MacBook I was raising concerns about how either Jaws NVDA orb Narrator would read the function keys on the Touch Bar. After I did a little bit of trial and error I was surprised because Jaws and Narrator aloud me to interact with the Touch Bar.
At first I thought How is Jaws supposed to read a touch Screen that has function keys integrated in it? I than turned off Narrator and fired up Jaws I held down the function key along with the Jaws key in my case I changed the keyboard layout to laptop rather than desktop because Jaws would assume that I was using a full sized keyboard I changed the Jaws modifier to be the Capslock key to the bottom left of my MacBooks keyboard I explored the touchBar only to find that with the Jaws modifier and the FN key held down simultaneously it read the function keys on the touchBar rather perfectly.
I'm an NVDA user.
I'd say that it depends on what you prefer, I tried a mac quite a few years back and prefer windows.