Will any data created, changed/updated or deleted during an iCloud backup also be included or updated in, or removed from that backup regardless of whether it had been backed up before the changes took place?
You are asking if, let us say for example, you deleted a critical (to you) piece of data, in the middle of an iCloud backup, and you are asking if that data is retrievable. Do I have that right?
If I am at least in the ball park of what you are asking, then my answer is this; I believe it is retrievable providing the backup completed backing up that particular piece of data before you made any changes.
Anyone else feel free to correct me if I am wrong. 🤷🏼♂️
well, that makes it sound more interesting. Yes, although I was also trying to know whether data created in the middle of an ongoing backup would also be incorporated into it. Let's assume I have 100 files and begin backing up my data to iCloud either automatically or manually. I have 10 apps, each having 10 files, from app A to app J. Let's assume each file takes up exactly the same amount of disk space for simplicity's sake. The hypothetical backup is in progress and at 45 percent, meaning file 5 of app D is currently being uploaded to iCloud. At that point, I open app B, the data associated to which have already been backed up, and update any of the existing ten files, make an eleventh file, or delete one of the ten files. What would happen in each of these cases? The thing is, this hypothesis makes it much simpler than it actually is in reality. Many, if not most, users wouldn't really think they would be creating, updating or deleting files when using the apps installed on their devices, or this wouldn't be the first thing to come to their mind, due partly to the nature of iOS on which users' direct access to the files stored on the device is restricted in certain ways.
Your head will explode after Brian brains you with a brick.
On a serious note, and the way I understand it, backups have an order to them. I do (not) know what the criteria is for what is backed up first.
Having said that, in your example above, if you start working on the elusive File B, and the backup has already gone down the list to File F, then your changes will either:
• Backup immediately.
or
• Not backup until next time.
My advice would be to play with it. Although time consuming, you could do a backup right now. Then make a new document, let us say a new Quicknote, then immediately reset your iPhone and restore from your backup.
I did say it would be time consuming. . . but at least you would have a more definitive answer. 🤷🏼♂️
Unfortunately, rotor settings are one of the things that are never really backed up. They tend to be all over the place when restoring. Also there it seems to be a problem with the auto speak. Text when AutoCorrect is working. You end up having to reset all settings to actually make that work properly (turn it on and it stay on).
Hello,
I also never have my A.C on, and it still messes up things. even people who see who have iPhones have auto-correct issues. Of course, it might be helpful in some respects, but not for me I don't guess.
Everyone has the right to dislike whatever they want. but it is not relevant to this post. The fact remains that the specific AutoCorrect bug exists. And it needs to be resolved.
It’s like hearing that your neighbors car broke down and saying you don’t like cars. It doesn’t help the neighbor and it definitely doesn’t make the situation better. Because the neighbor likes the car and needs it.
I'm not sure it makes a difference for purposes of this discussion, but there are two kinds of backups. Full and incremental. We're talking about iOS, and I believe all iOS backups are full backups. But Time Machine on the Mac uses incremental backups, which include only changed files.
But I think that's all moot, because whether it's full or incremental doesn't make a difference. If any data is modified during a backup, you pretty much have to accept that its status in the backup is indeterminate. The change might make it into the backup, it might not. I think it's called a race condition.
You might think you could design backup software that, after the backup completes, runs a second check and then tacks on any data changes made during the backup. But in so doing, you've created the same problem, because once again there's an opportunity for you to modify data during this second check. You've greatly complicated the design of your backup software, and you've still got the same problem.
As Brian points out, even with the simpler obvious design, data modified while the backup is in progress would be eligible for a subsequent backup. (If it's a full backup, there's no question. And if it's an incremental backup, like on the Mac, any data with a modified date later than the last backup's start time would be included.)
Topic shift.
On the Mac, I was tinkering around with Import and Export Preferences in VO Utility. My working theory was that I should be able to save preferences, reset all preferences to default, then restore preferences and be right back where I started. No dice. Some preferences aren't restored. I noticed two. One, any VO activity specific to a website doesn't restore the website. Two, Status of completing the VO Tutorial isn't restored, so next time you toggle VoiceOver, it runs the tutorial.
The problem is easy to demonstrate. Save your preferences, reset VoiceOver to default, restore from the saved preferences, and save your preferences again to a different file. You now have two preference files and they should be identical. But open Terminal and compare them using diff.
Oops!
Saveing and restoring settings was one of those tedious aspects of coding that object oriented design was supposed to solve. But here we are some 40 years after C++ and it's still an issue.
I am unsure on the actual term for this, but scientists have noticed that experiments have different results or outcomes based on observation. I swear programming is the same way.
Regarding OTA backups vs Backing up to your Mac, as I understand it backing up to your Mac, with encryption enabled, gives you the most "complete" backup data.
Still. . . I do not for one minute think absolutely everything that 'should' be backed up is in fact, backed up.
Based on my own experience of backing up both through Finder and iCloud, I think it's pretty clear the backups are incremental; they're very fast compared to the first time, often completing in under two minutes even with 200 GB plus of total data.
As to the question of when exactly files are backed up, and in the absence of more specific details about the backup process, but knowing that Apple have their APFS file system which supports point-in-time snapshots, it's probably safest to assume that backups taken represent the device's contents at the exact moment the backup started, i.e. assume nothing has been backed up since the last backup just began. Just be aware that, for some time now, iTunes/Finder backups do not happen automatically and you have to enter your passcode every time they are initiated either by connecting a cable or going on charge while Wi-Fi sync is on, because reasons, which have nothing to do with collecting even more iCloud revenue, honest, guvnor!
So basically, if you want to ensure you always have a current backup that was made within at least the last day, probably the single best thing to do is turn on iCloud backup for both Wi-Fi and cellular, and it will just happen when you charge, usually overnight, and you will want to make sure you have enough iCloud storage on your account, which typically means ponying up some regular, recurring, reliable subscription revenue. Which is just how Apple likes it, thank you very much.
Quite baffled as to why, really, but I enjoyed reading your comment haha 😝. Just thinking, the same message, but with a bit of humour, it goes a long way.
So, here is a question for you all; if exporting VO prefs are not working as intended, or rather they (are) working as intended, if by intended you mean to say not at all. . . would you get a better result by creating a portable prefs thumb drive?
Allow me to explain.
When you make a Portable Prefs thumb drive, ideally, your VO prefs are saved in its entirety to said thumb drive, with the idea that pluging said thumb drive into a different Mac will not only turn VO on, but will do so with your saved prefs.
Again ideally.
This should include things like voice, speech rate/pitch/volume, virbosity, etc, etc, etc.
So, would one not be able to make a portable prefs, and in the case of having to reset VO settings to factory, just plug in the thumb drive and load/save the settings that way?
Comments
If I understand your question
You are asking if, let us say for example, you deleted a critical (to you) piece of data, in the middle of an iCloud backup, and you are asking if that data is retrievable. Do I have that right?
If I am at least in the ball park of what you are asking, then my answer is this; I believe it is retrievable providing the backup completed backing up that particular piece of data before you made any changes.
Anyone else feel free to correct me if I am wrong. 🤷🏼♂️
You interpreted or (re)phrased the question in a way...
well, that makes it sound more interesting. Yes, although I was also trying to know whether data created in the middle of an ongoing backup would also be incorporated into it. Let's assume I have 100 files and begin backing up my data to iCloud either automatically or manually. I have 10 apps, each having 10 files, from app A to app J. Let's assume each file takes up exactly the same amount of disk space for simplicity's sake. The hypothetical backup is in progress and at 45 percent, meaning file 5 of app D is currently being uploaded to iCloud. At that point, I open app B, the data associated to which have already been backed up, and update any of the existing ten files, make an eleventh file, or delete one of the ten files. What would happen in each of these cases? The thing is, this hypothesis makes it much simpler than it actually is in reality. Many, if not most, users wouldn't really think they would be creating, updating or deleting files when using the apps installed on their devices, or this wouldn't be the first thing to come to their mind, due partly to the nature of iOS on which users' direct access to the files stored on the device is restricted in certain ways.
Answer
Your head will explode after Brian brains you with a brick.
On a serious note, and the way I understand it, backups have an order to them. I do (not) know what the criteria is for what is backed up first.
Having said that, in your example above, if you start working on the elusive File B, and the backup has already gone down the list to File F, then your changes will either:
• Backup immediately.
or
• Not backup until next time.
My advice would be to play with it. Although time consuming, you could do a backup right now. Then make a new document, let us say a new Quicknote, then immediately reset your iPhone and restore from your backup.
I did say it would be time consuming. . . but at least you would have a more definitive answer. 🤷🏼♂️
To try and see it for myself is always an option but
I wouldn't opt for it. I use my iPhone regularly for work and also as a student doing a master's degree.
It could be different now,…
It could be different now, but when I use to use iCloud backup, the voiceover settings wouldn't be backed up.
However, they would if you backed up using iTunes.
It would make sense if something you're working on didn't get backed up while you're accessing that file for instance.
I've gotten into the habit of backing up to the cloud manually at least once a day, and before I do an update, backup using iTunes.
In my experience, backing up using iTunes lets me keep my voiceover settings.
@kool_turk
Good point. Having to readjust all your personal VO settings can be a hassle. 😬
As I have been saying...
This could be why activities and downloaded voices are not synced properly to iCloud. Why are VoiceOver settings kept separate from everything else?
Roter settings are generally never backed up
Unfortunately, rotor settings are one of the things that are never really backed up. They tend to be all over the place when restoring. Also there it seems to be a problem with the auto speak. Text when AutoCorrect is working. You end up having to reset all settings to actually make that work properly (turn it on and it stay on).
I loathe auto correct
I cannot decide if it is just broken, or if it just isn't my cup of tea. Either way, I never have it enabled. . .
second that for loathing Auto-Correct!
Hello,
I also never have my A.C on, and it still messes up things. even people who see who have iPhones have auto-correct issues. Of course, it might be helpful in some respects, but not for me I don't guess.
Liking something is not relevant
Everyone has the right to dislike whatever they want. but it is not relevant to this post. The fact remains that the specific AutoCorrect bug exists. And it needs to be resolved.
It’s like hearing that your neighbors car broke down and saying you don’t like cars. It doesn’t help the neighbor and it definitely doesn’t make the situation better. Because the neighbor likes the car and needs it.
Design of backup
I'm not sure it makes a difference for purposes of this discussion, but there are two kinds of backups. Full and incremental. We're talking about iOS, and I believe all iOS backups are full backups. But Time Machine on the Mac uses incremental backups, which include only changed files.
But I think that's all moot, because whether it's full or incremental doesn't make a difference. If any data is modified during a backup, you pretty much have to accept that its status in the backup is indeterminate. The change might make it into the backup, it might not. I think it's called a race condition.
You might think you could design backup software that, after the backup completes, runs a second check and then tacks on any data changes made during the backup. But in so doing, you've created the same problem, because once again there's an opportunity for you to modify data during this second check. You've greatly complicated the design of your backup software, and you've still got the same problem.
As Brian points out, even with the simpler obvious design, data modified while the backup is in progress would be eligible for a subsequent backup. (If it's a full backup, there's no question. And if it's an incremental backup, like on the Mac, any data with a modified date later than the last backup's start time would be included.)
Topic shift.
On the Mac, I was tinkering around with Import and Export Preferences in VO Utility. My working theory was that I should be able to save preferences, reset all preferences to default, then restore preferences and be right back where I started. No dice. Some preferences aren't restored. I noticed two. One, any VO activity specific to a website doesn't restore the website. Two, Status of completing the VO Tutorial isn't restored, so next time you toggle VoiceOver, it runs the tutorial.
The problem is easy to demonstrate. Save your preferences, reset VoiceOver to default, restore from the saved preferences, and save your preferences again to a different file. You now have two preference files and they should be identical. But open Terminal and compare them using diff.
Oops!
Saveing and restoring settings was one of those tedious aspects of coding that object oriented design was supposed to solve. But here we are some 40 years after C++ and it's still an issue.
Observation effect
I am unsure on the actual term for this, but scientists have noticed that experiments have different results or outcomes based on observation. I swear programming is the same way.
Regarding OTA backups vs Backing up to your Mac, as I understand it backing up to your Mac, with encryption enabled, gives you the most "complete" backup data.
Still. . . I do not for one minute think absolutely everything that 'should' be backed up is in fact, backed up.
/end 2 cents.
Incremental Backups
Interesting thread.
Based on my own experience of backing up both through Finder and iCloud, I think it's pretty clear the backups are incremental; they're very fast compared to the first time, often completing in under two minutes even with 200 GB plus of total data.
As to the question of when exactly files are backed up, and in the absence of more specific details about the backup process, but knowing that Apple have their APFS file system which supports point-in-time snapshots, it's probably safest to assume that backups taken represent the device's contents at the exact moment the backup started, i.e. assume nothing has been backed up since the last backup just began. Just be aware that, for some time now, iTunes/Finder backups do not happen automatically and you have to enter your passcode every time they are initiated either by connecting a cable or going on charge while Wi-Fi sync is on, because reasons, which have nothing to do with collecting even more iCloud revenue, honest, guvnor!
So basically, if you want to ensure you always have a current backup that was made within at least the last day, probably the single best thing to do is turn on iCloud backup for both Wi-Fi and cellular, and it will just happen when you charge, usually overnight, and you will want to make sure you have enough iCloud storage on your account, which typically means ponying up some regular, recurring, reliable subscription revenue. Which is just how Apple likes it, thank you very much.
Re: Incremental Backups
All hail Benjamin Cook. . . wait, he (is) the guy on the $100 US. . .
Right?
LOL, if only.
LOL, if only.
@PaulMartz
Quite baffled as to why, really, but I enjoyed reading your comment haha 😝. Just thinking, the same message, but with a bit of humour, it goes a long way.
Exporting vs Portable
So, here is a question for you all; if exporting VO prefs are not working as intended, or rather they (are) working as intended, if by intended you mean to say not at all. . . would you get a better result by creating a portable prefs thumb drive?
Allow me to explain.
When you make a Portable Prefs thumb drive, ideally, your VO prefs are saved in its entirety to said thumb drive, with the idea that pluging said thumb drive into a different Mac will not only turn VO on, but will do so with your saved prefs.
Again ideally.
This should include things like voice, speech rate/pitch/volume, virbosity, etc, etc, etc.
So, would one not be able to make a portable prefs, and in the case of having to reset VO settings to factory, just plug in the thumb drive and load/save the settings that way?
Thoughts?