Just my thoughts

Hello there,
I do not know why you think there is negativity surrounding IOS 13 on this website. it is our prerogative to carry discussions and issues we face while using apple devices. The comments and issues listed here are similar to every IOS/Mac OS/Watch OS release.
It is natural to air one's problems/issues so that they could be solved or resolved. It in no way undermines Apple's great efforts regarding accessibility and benefits we derive from it. (though, we do pay a lot in terms of money, forsooth)! I do not think apple is doing any charity by acknowledging the need for accessibility and trying to provide it through their softwares/hardwares.
Although I appreciate that these are your thoughts, I would beg to differ from your characterisation of it as negative.
Good day!

I'm sorry, but people don't deserve praise all the time. To me the bigger issue is this: some of these bugs could make it impossible for a person to do what they need to do with their device. Since the fine folks at apple (not capitalized deliberately) don't give you any way to downgrade once you've tried the new version and discovered you can't use it yet, apple deserves all the criticism that could be heaped upon it.

I tried the first public beta, and it had major problems I couldn't live with in a production environment. I was able to downgrade. Since I don't have any other devices that I could easily fall back upon, I think I'll give ios 13 a few more weeks.

First if you check previous discussion about iOS 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 and 7 you will see we did not have as bugs. In the past I maybe made 2 or 5 comments about bugs. Unlucky 13 created bugs or problem for me. I purchase a phone and I expect it to work.

I have to somewhat agree, but only somewhat. It seems to me that people are complaining about the slightest things, such as how a certain voice pronounces this or that word, or that VoiceOver has become too verbose. I've had my iPhone long enough to know that within the settings app, various things under the Accessibility category can be customized such as voice pronunciation. I admit this was a bit choppy for me when I did it yesterday, but I will try it again and if VoiceOver becomes unresponsive, I will report the bug by emailing accessibility@apple.com . It is now even possible to customize how individual punctuation is voiced. I have yet to do this myself, but my point in all this is that VoiceOver is in fact very customizable. Some may not like it a certain way, and if that's the case then all one needs to do is go into Settings and change some of them. I realize not everybody likes Apple for this or that reason, but don't ruin it for the rest of us. In the short time I've owned an iOS device, I've been very happy with it and the way in which Apple seemlessly integrates accessibility throughout the operating system. As a matter of fact, I don't think there's much about Apple that is unpleasing to me. But regardless of that, people do need to show a bit more respect for this hard-working and committed company.

Niki, I agree. Although there is more negativity in Facebook groups.

While there are criticisms that aren’t worth whining about, there are real issues that need to be addressed. I appreciate Apple and their dedication to accessibility, but I won’t applaud bad execution. I prefer stable and accuracy over new features.
Apple was ambitious with a large rollout of new accessibility features. While that’s fantastic for the community, there’s serious bugs that haven’t been addressed for multiple updates and rollouts.
Bugs are to be expected. A bug that freezes a phone when hanging up... not so much. That’s a security and safety issue for a blind individual in an emergency situation. Restarting a device could use up critical time.
While there’s no help in complaining. There’s value in crowdsourcing bugs and issues.
I also find it offensive when blind people are constantly told what we should be grateful for.

I agree with the original poster. Sometimes people complain about the slightest and most insignificant details. At the same time, I also agree that there are bugs that do deserve to be brought to the attention of everyone else And, if possible, try to find a workaround these issues.
I honestly have to say that, during the time I had an android phone, it was a nightmare. I never felt in total control of my device. I feel in control of my phone since I got my first iPhone. There are bugs, yes, but they are not showstoppers for me. When hanging up a phone call, and if voiceover stops speaking, I just press and hold the side button to summon Siri. Then press that again and voiceover speaks once more.
I think that it is OK to say that something is working good or bad but, truthfully speaking, some people tend to exaggerate things too much.
Let's not be so negative. Just because something is not working properly, that does not mean that Apple is pulling away from accessibility. That's a very common thing told by many people every single time a bug is encountered.
We want to be taken seriously? Then let's act like serious people. Sometimes some people behave like children complaining that the soup is too cold or too hot.
Just my thoughts.

I’d also like to add that this isn’t just related to accessibility. Apple has lapsed on security. Theres an unfixable flaw that allows devices to be jailbroken. A pretty big Reminders issue that affects not just the disability community. All these things documented in major tech blogs.
While I’m thankful for an invaluable tool. I won’t be forced not to give my thoughts on a very expensive device... one that finds itself in mediocre operation.
I’m up for others thoughts and opinions. Debate is a wonderful thing. I however don’t drink the Appl Kool-Aid.

The biggest criticism I have with Apple is that they set themselves definite release dates, and damn the consequences if things don't work or there are bugs. Hold off on releasing a product, whether that be hardware or software, until you have the kinks worked out. And no, I'm not just referring to accessibility. Lately Apple has become enamoured of Wow rather than workability.

They might get more beta testers if they made it simpler to downgrade if things didn't work out. I lost a little in the downgrade when I dropped out of the public beta, and was glad to get away with my skin mostly intact. I have to agree with a previous poster, apple needs to work on getting the things right rather than releasing them on a certain day. I also think a lot of the problems are results of feature creep. I for one would be happy for a good while with a device that did no more than what mine does now, adding a bunch of bells and whistles may sell product, but getting burned by major bugs can make a customer decide to wait until they have to rather than upgrading because they want to.

I paid the same for my iPhone as my sighted partner did, didn't I? I've had a wretched time with IOS13 in all its incarnations thus far. The 13 clearly stands for the amount of times I've had to reset my phone, restore my phone, etc. Or it stands for the amount of years I have aged in the week since I updated. It don't work as it should. If it don't work then, alas, I shall grumble about it" If that's ingratitude, so be it. The day Apple becomes a charity I shall certainly pause for a moment before I grumble to reflect on them volunteering their time to try their best, but for as long as I pay £700+ for an iPhone I shall moan if the battery only lasts five minutes, if the focus jumps about all over the place, or if (very interestingly indeed) Airplane mode turns off mobile data, but not wifi or bluetooth.

Pax Appliscum

If the release was plagued by minor bugs, then I think a lot of us would be singing a pretty different tune. It astounds me that a bug such as the no speech after calls bug made it through to final release though. From what I've been able to tell, not every fix works for everyone and in some cases literally ends up being the only option. Lets bring up a very real world example. Johnny is out and about trying to get to a job interview. Maybe he's in an area he's not super familiar with, so he's been using his phones GPS to help him get to his destination. He gets a call from his potential employer for whatever reason. He hangs up the phone and discovers that he's lost his speech. He tries restarting VO a few times with no success. He's not super tech savvy and doesn't know about soft resetting his phone or anything like that. Maybe he hasn't heard of Applevis or other ways to reach out to other blind people who might be experiencing these issues. He's now essentially left with 2 options. 1. Look for someone sighted to literally help him restart his phone, for fear of accidentally calling emergency services. 2. Keep trying to get his phone back. Both of these things detract time from a potential job interview. The only reason he updated to iOS 13 is because Apple suggested he should and it'll make his phone better. Is it not reasonable for him to assume that a company with a reputation to uphold would have such issues sorted out? Possibly a bit of a far fetched example, but these people exist. If you want something a bit more real world though, the majority of older people. No, not all would see the need to update, but some again might just do it because Apple said that the release was ready for prime time. It is the equivalent of turning your screen completely black and expecting someone to figure out wtf is going on. You also can't tell me that there weren't people who didn't bring this up over and over during beta cycles. The mentality of telling everyone not to update really doesn't help anyone. If no one updated, how would these bugs get noticed? Who's to say that we get to iOS 13.3, 4 etc and find these bugs are still present? No. I don't want to hear about the accessibility market being a niche market, so we should be more lax on these big companies. At the end of the day, I'm still as every bit a customer as the sighted person next to me. Again going back to the black screen example. If that somehow remained an issue in final release and Apple started hearing about all these people having issues, you'd bet they'd be back peddling as fast as they could to fix that. Possibly even pull the update. I'd say that it's highly unlikely that would happened, though I'm surprised at some of the stuff that's been aloud to slip through the cracks this time round if I'm being honest. Before every Android apologist comes out of the woodwork, no. Google are just as guilty of this sort of stuff, if not worse. That's a whole other can of worms though.

You’re sure Apple is doing its best? Sorry, but Apple is not doing its best. Try to search AppleVis for some very old bugs that still exist up to the latest iOS release to understand where Apple is going. I betatest iOS releases, each release sends out very limited number of accessibility features and other big problems. I keep emailing Apple about QuickNav issues since iOS 9 and nothing up to the moment; it might be a one-minute programming repair, still nothing. I have really extensive list of bugs that they don’t seem to be solved soon.
Customers have the right to bash and complain when a feature worked really well, and now it is almost gone. I am full user of iPad, and I know what I say. You’re not experiencing problems with iOS 13, OK that’s fine, still other customers are having really bad experience with it.
Apple’s commitment to accessibility is in its worst time, on the Mac side of things, I am trying to remember a new feature added to VoiceOver that made real difference in user experience, emmm, nothing!

I agree with lot many commentators here. As I previously commented, Apple is not a charity, to say that be thankful for what you have got is really insulting.
Think of a poor student from a third world country who is disabled and does rely on Apple devices. First of all, I know of people who have taken bank loans in order to buy these beastly expensive devices solely because Apple showcases their accessibility features.
If for any blessed reason the features do not work as they should, then the chap who has literally sweated blood and tears to purchase his/her device has every right to air his/her grievance.
One may not tell him/her to be grateful and make do with what he/she has got at the moment.
It is a bloody shame that other competitors in the market are not taking accessibility seriously, but that in no way lets apple offf the proverbial hook, I say!

I'm very happy for what I can do with my ipad. I can read memes & post them on Facebook, I can access websites & services such as Pandora & Goodreads, I can read certain emails that in the past, had been unreadable sans sighted help.
That said, I think some versions of Ios. have been better than others. 12 was way better than 10. That being said, I know there will be bugs, that's a given. But I'm surprised at the stuff that slipped through this time like the call bug. I have it in Messenger $ when I experienced it, it was neve-wracking. Thank god 4 apple's accessibility support & the rep who was understanding & compassionate & patient & got my ipad back.
But I think this 1 should be called unlucky 13. And every use case is different, I use my ipad differently from say my mom. It's impossible 2 test litterally every single use case. And I think even if you could do it, you'd still have bugs. I'm not saying Apple isn't doing a good job on accessibility. I'm just not happy with a lot of the bugs I & others are dealing with sighted or not in this version. And it's like S said, some versions are better than others. I think that's what we should remember. And I'll never switch 2 Android, because I've heard that it's a nightmare. I think Apple does a better job with accessibility than Android. And I also think part of Android's issue is that so many companies have it, & they modify it for their phones. So, that could either creates more bugs, makes bugs that are there worse, or just plain doesn't fix bugs that are there. I think we should be able to air our frustrations constructively. Seeing posts & comments on this site has saved me from ulcers & heartache more than once. I update 4 security & sometimes knew features. but mainly 4 security. to the people dealing with issues in Ios. & Ipad-Os. I'm with you guys. You have my sympathy, I may not be experiencing all the issues you all are, but I'm dealing with some of them like the call bug. which by the way, the only workaround I found is 2 have the other person end the call. That's my thoughts.

also like a lot of you I hope that a lot of or at the very least a small percentage of thise issues get fixed in the next major 13 ufdate.

Well as we are doing a just my thoughts thing here, I am going to reply. What I will say at the beginning is this is just my personal opinion. When you say that you are not having the issues that others are having, one thing you need to take into consideration is that some of these bugs appear to be very randum like the voiceover freezing after an IPhone call to an IPhone call. I personally haven't experienced this one at all, but I have at least three friends that have. What might seem like negativity to you might be someones frustration, because they are having these issues. Believe me as I know, as when I am doing beta testing for things, there have been times where I came across a bug, but others didn't. Sometimes bugs can even depend on what phone you have, as each phone meaning a 7, or an 8 or the XR have different processers. Your statement about regretting it in a minute if someone went to android is most certainly just your opinion as I have both an IPhone, and an android, and I don't regret it. in fact there are times I am very glad I have both. A perfect example of this is the uber eats app on the IPhone VS android. Ever sence the Uber Eats app has had the crashing issues, and the I am not going to select something when you tell me too issues on the IPhone, that issue never showed up on android. There were a few times we had to place the order on an android phone, when the crashing issue was realy bad. and this also goes back to my point where sometimes bugs are very randum. My girlfriend and I both have IPhones, and androids, and when this Uber Eats bug started, we could run the app on both of our IPhones, and hers would crash, and mine didn't.

One thing I forgot to bring up on my last reply is here is something to also consider. remember they released version 13.0, then about five days later 13.1. then they released 13.1.1 and 13.1.2 just a couple days from each other. all of this in less than two weeks. this clearly indicates they are scrambeling to fix bugs, and they know there are a lot of them, and not just for accessibility either. in my personal opinion this doesn't make them look good at all! they should have wated to release 13.0 when it was ready, and had a lot of these bugs squashed, instead of releasing not only 13.0, but three more in under two weeks. me personally I would have gladly waited until say november or something like that if that ment a lot of these bugs were squashed from the get to. my thought now is how many more versions are they going to release before november? my girlfriend who loves apple won't even touch version 13 right now. we jokingly call version 13.X as version 13.broken.

Hi!
While I seem to belong to the fortunate group of people blissfully unaffected by most of these bugs, I see how the "works for me" type messages here can easily come across as demoralizing. We need to keep in mind that a bug is still a bug even if it affects only some people and not others. In mathematics, a hypothesis is falsified by just one counterexample, no matter for how many other examples the hypothesis holds true.
In an ecosystem where the same company makes both hardware and software, and where apps are sandboxed so as not to affect unrelated parts of the system, we can expect good performance, especially given the pricing. Where we find less than good performance we have every right to complain, and this has nothing to do with negativity as long as we don't overexaggerate.
Cheers Perry

Bugs happen for every software update release for the general public, not just for users of accessibility features. It comes with the territory of big updates. It's not like Apple is intentionally ignoring accessibility bugs on updates for the most part ... everyone experiences bugs.

We have no way to know if these problems are being reported in a timely enough manner to be fixed, and whether or not they are worse than what the general public is dealing with. What we do know is that apple gets release dates set without considering the bugs, and that they are sitting on a huge pile of cash that could probably be used to help the situation. They are choosing to release buggy software, and they can easily afford to do better if they wanted to do so.

Hi!
I am observing that this thread is getting swamped with pointless speculations not backed by evidence. This kind of talk may, if it continues, be detremental to the reputation of our community as a whole. So how about cooling it?
I am neither an admin nor a moderator here. I'm only a hypnotist, and this is just a suggestion.
Cheers Perry

I'm dealing with three very annoying bugs, two moderate and the other critical, at least to me. So, for me, Braille Screen Input likes to not become active, even when VO says it is. You'll turn the rotor to it, and it'll say that it's in BSI mode, but what's actually happening is that it's still displaying the regular iOS keyboard, along with whatever else was on the screen.

Another bug I'm having is that when I paste stuff into an edit field, it's pasted, but VO doesn't tell you what you're landing on when you try to navigate the text. More importantly, it doesn't read anything in the text field when you move to it using right/left flicks, just to make sure you're not going crazy and that you did actually type something. It eventually catches up to itself, but it's rather annoying. This also happens if you're just writing in a text field--particularly in Safari's address bar.

The last bug I'll mention, and this one's a doozy, is when your phone completely locks up! For example, this happens to me in Safari exclusively. I don't know why it happens, but I'll be browsing a site or typing in the address bar (that's where it happened to me this morning) and the phone will lock up. VO is working at turtle speed, and Siri does things like tell you that VO is already off (I was trying to turn it off so my husband could reboot my phone when it's not. Thank God there's a way to reboot it using only physical buttons, and that my wonderful husband thought to look it up, because the stupid slide to power off thing just was not focusing for me with VO, and VO was just not turning off. Anyhow, that last bug is the most serious for me, though it's somewhat mitigated by the fact that I now have a reliable, hardware-only method of rebooting my phone. However, this doesn't mean Apple is off the hook. What if I lost important edits to a document or something because my phone and VO became this unresponsive and I couldn't press save or done or whatever before having to reboot my phone? What if I had to respond to a text that was time-sensative? This kind of behavior is something I would expect in a beta release, not official release software. Come on, Apple. I'm going to be updating to 13 point whatever we're at in hopes that these issues go away. Also, I'm hoping my stupid iCloud backup doesn't stay stuck at 95% for half an hour again like it did yesterday. That's what I get for turning on the backing up of iMessages to iCloud.

Thanks,Shersey

As I stated in the past and in other questions related to iOS. We purchase the iPhone and like sighted people we need to be taking seriously when we have issues with iOS. If the sighted community complain about an iOS bug within months or less the issue is address. We do not get the iPhone for free but we pay for it and since we are consumers we have the right to talk about issues. I had not address questions about iOS in the past because I did not had issues with bugs with the only bug which was VO stating the time at the end of a notification. I am dealing with so many issues in unlucky 13 that even Bella the cat is upset.

Instead of cluttering up the form with tons of negative feedback about apples latest software, why don't you instead right to the accessibility team, politely expressing your frustration. What is complaining going to accomplish here? I keep seeing a lot of the same comments over and over again, and quite frankly, it’s frustrating as someone who comes to the site for news, App recommendations, and so on. You have every right to express your opinion, but I feel there are probably better places to be doing that than this form topic which seems to almost always be near the top of the latest posts list. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the original poster, but I don't think constantly writing negative comments that seem to be talking about the same issues repeatedly is going to solve much. We know that there are bugs, so let's do something about helping to fix them instead of constantly complaining on this form.

I also definitely think that we should constantly be pushing for more accessibility, and I don't like this whole “just be grateful” attitude. I'm really not sure why some blind people seem to think that they can't change anything and are happy with taking what's offered to them. All I am saying is that there probably are better discussion forms dedicated to bugs where you guys can talk about this as much as you like. Absolutely keep posting information on new bugs that are developing, but I think up to a certain point, discussion of bugs that have already been talked about over and over and over again should really be taken care of, because all it does is clutter up the form and make it more difficult for people to get information on new features and so on. I absolutely love that people are pushing Apple to do better because I really think they need it, but I think maybe it's time to tone it down a little bit and focus on testing new betas, and sending feedback to Apple on bugs you find so they can be fixed.

hi
I've been an android user till may and I'm so grateful that I switched to IOS.
we should be lucky that at least Apple provides a list of phones receiving updates and you don't have to weight for months or even years at end to get the update you need. eventually, you will have to change your device to get a newer update if you get to know that sadly, your phone won't be receiving the update. now even Google has told that talkback won't work on phones with android below 7.

I'm so happy that I just have to go in settings to get the latest update and I know before hand that will my phone be receiving it or not.

though their are issues, it's just amazing to have something latest at hand.

these are just my thoughts, thank you.

Hi all. I haven't had any bugs i can think of, but that doesn't make it any different to those who have their phone lock up or freeze, wait that's the same thing. Oops? Anyway, in my opinion, Apple is doing to much. If you count the operating systems, you have Ipad OS,1, Ios, 2, TvOs,3 and watch OS,4. Oh hang on Mac, forgot that. I think they have so much going on with each operating system, they don't have the time to devote to fixing every little bug that might crop up. I'm in no way saying that the bugs shouldn't be fixed. I'm saying if Apple had developed a team to work on each OS and found more bugs possibly they wouldn't have released as many as they did. It was obvious they screwed up when they released the second IOS just after 13. I don't believe in that whole unlucky 13 nonsense. Be honest with yourself. This could've been called IOS22 and you'd still have had the bugs no matter what number they gave it. As for the be grateful attitude, you can stick that in your pipe and smoke it. I'd say how i really feel, but you can't handle that. So I'll keep updating, keep reporting what I consider a bug, and we'll see what happens from here on out.

Hi Siobhan. I agree with you. If apple just had a team for each OS, we wouldn't have these bugs/issues. This negativity is exactly why I don't really deal with a lot of folks from the vis/blindy community anymore. I'll just say this, keep reporting issues to apple's accessibility department, or better yet, find a way on joining their accessibility team and working with them on squashing these bugs. I personally am not having a lot of issues with 13 anymore, but that isn't saying it is perfect. I don't know, work with apple on these issues, report them, I don't care... Their access team is pretty small from what I've heard, and think they should just have the new phones with 12 on them still, then release the newest iOS when it's ready for the public, but it's just me.

Let me try this again! I think that Apple is doing the best they can. WillEvery aren't the only people that have problems with IOS 13. Apple is one of the better companies out there. I thank AppleVis for posting the bugs list. It was everyone's own personal choice to upgrade. We weren't held at gunpoint. We upgraded at our own risk, knowing the bugs are there. I have experienced very few, but I have experienced them. One is the slow typing. I upgraded at my own risk. Now, like everyone else, I am waiting for the bugs to be ironed out. All we can do is report the bugs, see if there is a workaround, and if not, know that bug is there and wait forthe next update. Everyone is having issues with IOS 13. Instead of complainthe do something. And be patient. Every device, like humans, is different. Personally, appe is a heck ofa lot better than Android. Keep up the good work, AppleVis, and Apple. Things will work out.

I am not going to preface my remarks with the disclaimer that this is only my personal opinion etc. as everyone reading already knows that. Besides, such disclaimers don't make the opinion more or less acceptable - it is what it is.

"Instead of giving negative feedback on communities like this, why don't you all do something constructive and write to Apple Accessibility?"

I've read plenty of contributions like this, and they get more annoying each time I do so! Never have I read anything so sanctimonious. To begin with, the two aren't mutually exclusive. I can be negative on here about IOS13 and still work with Apple to try and resolve the problems, can't I? Next, as others have said, the negative feedback about IOS13 isn't simple flaming. On the contrary, it's evidence-based and reflective of the frustration people are experiencing. For my part, my phone is ruined since this update. Ruined ruined ruined and it's IOS13's fault! I don't know what it did to the battery, but it's no coincidence in my book that since updating from 12.4.1 to 13.1 and subsequent versions I can barely get through a day of light to moderate use. Sure, I've worked with accessibility, done multiple resets and restores and even gone to the Apple store and bought a new battery, but all this has been (and continues to be) a lot of work consuming a vast amount of time and resources. Sure, it was my own choice to upgrade, but if I hadn't done so I would have been criticised by the same folk who exhort me to feel lucky and grateful that I have accessibility, only this time for not exposing myself to bugs so I could work with Apple to resolve them. sure, apple are undoubtedly one of the better companies out there in terms of accessibility, which is why I am confident that Apple will take such feedback on the chin and appreciate what a rotten time some of us are having. Sure, inflamatory commentary might detract from the reputation of our community, but I doubt Apple are such corporate snowflakes and there's plenty of praise for Apple elsewhere on this site to cheer them up in any case. I honestly haven't seen anything on this thread that is inflamatory. Even the 'pile of cash' comment, I think, is reflective of frustration. Not everything people say will be evidence-based. We're not authoring a report for a policy organisation, and there is room for emotion as well. The fact that some people are reacting emotionally simply reflects how important these devices have become to everyone, not just the blind. So, I am not lucky. I am jolly unlucky and I wish I had never upgraded. As it is, it's either new phone time or setting the old phone up as new time, the latter of which depresses me due to the amount of work involved.

Okay, I really didn't want to do this, but, excuse language, damn this really escalated to the skies.
There is a door in between most of us right now. As far as I've read, on one side we have the people attempting to; positive. The other side is complete chaos, slicing Apple head-on.
First of all, where did any of you get the idea that updates were always going to be stable and have no bugs?
From the time of first smartphones and tablets, they always had an issue or two, and that still remains the case. I'm not directing my accusation towards anyone in particular, but I believe some of you attempt to spread the negativity in a manner that will discourage people that haven't tried the firmware to avoid updating just because of some minor little thing like for example, VoiceOver not pronouncing things correctly. Like seriously?
And technology will always have bugs no matter what. If one is fixed, another will appear. And that's why, oh look! We have this! accessibility@apple.com. The feedbck app for the beta testers. You can even call Apple and consult their Accessibility team directly!
It seems like people think Apple is their servant and can order them to add a feature or fix a bug, but complains when the bug gets fixed about a different one like their speaker crackling lightly but don't report it, instead just galloping around the site talking about it and not making a positive difference. I'm not sure what to say anymore, this has just gone way too far.

I'd really like to be taught something. I'll try not to invoke my Irish temper, yet the comment before this last one begs just that. You're on IOS version whatever and it's all fine and dandy. No issues, or if they are the issues do not either seriously or are minor hinder your daily progress at living your life. Now the next latest and greatest version appears. Complete with the bells and whistles that make you give pause to upgrading or not. So you have the curiosity and upgrade. Maybe you have a battery issue, inverted colors issue, or a myriad of issues. Some may be as minor as restarting Voice over, some may be as major as needing either a new phone or resetting it as factory default. In the above scenario I have indicated that an upgrade was a choice. So when you have a bug whether serious or not, I ask you these questions. Did someone ask you to upgrade? Did someone tell you it was mandatory? Did Apple say, Upgrade immediately or lose functionality? In these and other questions I could come up with there's a simple answer. No. So you can complain about Apple's not fixing a bug you personally may have yet everyone else up who updates doesn't. You can complain that Apple's newest operating system bricked your device. You can badmouth a company all you like. The bottom line is easy to understand. Blame yourself. You upgraded, you, chose to see what the hype was all about. In doing so, now that you have a device you are unhappy with, why is it apple's responsibility to let you go back? I say it isn't. would you downgrade a house or a car, because the gas milage or the living space was better than your current situation? No that would be unrealistic. In the end, Apple is not the savior of all your problems. Did they create some with a new release? Yes. Did you create some yourself by upgrading, thereby taking what was a perfectly functional device and possibly causing issues? Yes. Apple is not the bad guy you claim. Take responsibility for your part in choosing the upgrade. Report bugs, vent absolutely understandable. In the end, own up to it.

You chaps who are saying 'you chose to upgrade so you visited this on yourself' and drawing analogies and comparisons with houses and cars are missing the point that goods have to be reasonably fit for the intended purpose. In England, that has been the law since 1893. You are missing the point that some defects might be latent, not patent. Would you really have said to poor old Mrs Donoghue who discovered a snail in her bottle of ginger beer that she chose to buy a ginger beer to pour over her ice-cream when she could have chosen to just have the ice-cream? Was her gastrointeritis her fault? you might answer me by saying that the cases are not alike - this is not a snail in a bottle of ginger beer a la Donoghue v. Stephenson, all software has bugs. agreed, but some of these are very serious indeed. For my own part, I haven't bad-mouthed Apple at all; but I have been very, very critical of some of the shortcomings of this release, and also of those who say i should think myself lucky and/or work constructively rather than be negative all the time. There's plenty of positive content about Apple on here if you want to take a break from all this; but for my part, I'm going to close my last contribution to this thread by robustly defending those who want to be negative about what they have found in this release or other software releases. It's noth wrong to be emotional about it either. It would be wrong to indulge in vitreolic abuse, but I haven't seen any of that.