Learning braille with tech

Some will say that actual braille text books are the best way to learn, especially those that are designed to teach you braille. Others will say applications on a device such as a smart phone or tablet, and then again others will say a braille display. I say, whatever's clever.
Personally, I learned with the old grades one and two braille text books, pre-UEB style of braille that is.

I say use whatever gets the Braille under your fingers more often. It really is true that the more you use it, both reading it and typing it, the better you will get at recognizing what's under your fingers.
I learned Braille as a child, but had enough vision to use magnification until my early 30's. After I lost my usable vision, I picked Braille up again, but I'm still nowhere near as fast as I would like to be with reading it. I was able to get one of the Braille displays from NLS, and it helped me immensely because it gave me a lot more opportunities to get Braille under my fingers, so I was practicing a lot more.
There is definitely a learning curve to using a Braille display with a smart phone or computer, but you don't have to learn it all at once. If you just want to use the display to read what's on screen, you can do that without learning any of the cord commands. Just use your normal gestures to navigate on the device or use a separate qwerty keyboard . Then you can pick up the cord commands later if you want to. That being said, I would love to have a Mantis just so I could use the normal qwerty commands and not have to mess with the ones for the Perkins displays just because I'm more familiar with them and therefore more comfortable with them.
Another thing that really helped me was using Braille screen input more on my phone. I found that typing it also helped me to read it better. Don't ask me why. I guess my brain just got more familiar with the dot patterns, so my fingers were able to pick them up more easily. I don't know. I just know it helped a lot, so I recommend typing in Braille either with Braille screen input or with your Hable one as often as you can, even if you're slower at it than with a qwerty.

Hi Grieves!

Yes, the Brailliant has audio, which makes it a bit easier to navigate its menus. But if you're going to jump straight to terminal mode and connect to your phone or computer running a screen reader, then the braille display's built-in audio doesn't help much, because you'll spend most of your time listening to the screen reader, which is going to echo the displayed braille.

I will tell you that when I use my braille display with my iPhone, my workspace consists of my iPhone on my desk, and both my braille display and Logitech keyboard on my lap. That way, I can switch between whichever interface I want to use at a given moment. Maybe if I used the braille display on more of a full-time basis, I'd become proficient enough that I wouldn't need my QWERTY crutch, but for now, I like the ability to switch between the two, and I don't see that situation changing anytime soon.

The pocket dot is only 8 cells which I think will be okay for very short reading, but not really book reading, or even article reading, though we can't tel until it's here.

A tip for if you do go for a display and want to get into book reading... Start with short stories, preferably ones you know, then build up in length. The best way to learn anything, I find, is to make it as enjoyable as possible so, in this case, make sure the content you're consuming is exciting and fun.

Regarding the orbit, I hear it is good but can be a little louder than other displays due to the technology it uses and the refresh rate is slightly slower. I don't know how this translates to the reality of reading. I've also been looking at it as a possibility.

Tech is a tool you can learn any time and it changes with time. Braille is a priceless skill that you learn and refine with practice and that never leaves you as long as it's valuable to you.

When I was at school I could have stood to have had the tools I now take for granted, especially Braille displays or note-takers with built-in Braille file editing. But I'll never regret the time I asked my social worker at home for a Perkins Brailler so I could learn and practice the Fingerprint course and learn to reproduce the Braille I was reading in books. You need to make the process of learning Braille as directly involved and engaging as you possibly can, and if doing that with Perkins and paper makes that easier for you then just do it. It'll be cheaper, too. Once you feel ready to bring the joy of Braille nearer to your tech life—and I agree that it has enormous potential for programming and system administration—then grab a display to put near your keyboard. I'd still recommend Perkins input even then, because in practice it's just a question of learning commands, but I suppose I can understand the desire to stick with QWERTY given it's one less avenue of complexity and makes your display easier to use standalone where that familiarity is useful. Although I must say that having transitioned from QWERTY to Perkins twice now, I can honestly say that a well-thought-out Braille layout is wonderfully flexible.

JMO. YMMV. Etc. And good luck!

I don't have the Orbit 20 specifically. I do have the Orbit multi-line Slate display which sues the same cell technology. It is noisy compared to the typical piezo-electric Braille displays. But its not terrible if you're not doing sound editing or something. Generally I'd describe it like a quiet electric typewriter. Anyone remember those? Or a moderate mechanical keyboard. In fact I think it is probably quieter than my Kenises Advantage360 mechanical keyboard which can get pretty clattery.
Other than sound, this biggest difference, drawback? to the Orbit cell technology is refresh rate. Coming from a lifetime of piezo-electric cells it is noticeable. For someone has no other Braille display experience and/or is just learning Braille it won't be noticeable.

In this site, under the orbit section, you can find the audio of the orbit sound as the cells refresh.

Wow, didn't know that site. I'm always happy to learn about other blinds on the web.

I agree with every word of what Sebbie said. I appreciate that there's seemingly a less compelling use case for writing Braille when you're older, but the advantage is that writing the cells might actually help you understand how they're configured when reading the cells. when learning my letters, for example, things made a lot more sense when I understood that dots 1-3-4 on the Perkins made the letter M, which I could then read under my fingers. Plus, you never know, do you? What if you want to write a Christmas card? There's probably a better example - apologies.

I get that the Fingerprint course might not be very enjoyable; but it's often the least enjoyable things that are the most important. One tactic might be to really force your hand and remove the temptation of a qwerty keyboard altogether. Sit yourself down with a Perkins-style keyboard (whether a brailler or a Braille display) knowing that the qwerty ain't there to save you, and put in the Braille writing hard yards that way. It will take ages and be very, very dull, but I would say it will be worth it.

The Orbit20 is s little noisy, but not that much. It wouldn't do if you were a broadcaster, but you're not. The refresh rate is fine - I've read a full length novel on it in complete comfort and I'm celebrating my ruby Braille reading jubilee this year.

Have you checked out http://www.hadleyhelps.org ? They no longer have the full courses, but they do have some very good workshops about both Braille codes. They also have practice material, and I believe there's even a simulation Braille writer on their website. Regarding Braille displays, I've briefly checked out a few and I now own one of the HumanWare eReaders from NLS. I haven't used it much, but it is very nice. I'm trying to learn the Unified English Braille code.

If you don't know your grade 2 Braille already, UEB involves no learning curve at all as you'd not know any different. In any case, the stuff you hear about the learning curve to UEB mainly comes from our North american friends. The differences between UEB and American Braille are quite significant. For us, however, there really isn't a huge amount of difference between UK braille and UEB, though plenty of seasoned Braille readers in this country will always prefer UK Braille because it's what they've always had. If that sounds a bit like a contridiction, it isn't: in literary Braille, there are subtle differences between UEB and UK Braille. Those who want nothing to do with UEB value these subtleties very highly. Cue another blast of the trumpet from the 'that's their opinion' merchants! The differences between UEB and UK Braille are more significant when it comes to maths and foreign language characters in the context of a mainly English document, but as maths is boring and as you've never mentioned that you have a penfriend in Dusseldorf to whom you want to write in Braille, you won't need to worry about that. So in short, don't you fret about the learning curve which, to you, will be irrelevant unless you start reading paper Braille bbooks printed before we adopted UEB.

Get the Orbit. Don't worry about the Humanware display. For what you want, the orbit will do the job and do it very well.

and, persevere with your Braille - give it time. If you'd come to Bingo's wedding back in 2022, you'd have not been able to follow the service and join in with the hymns (Tell out, my soul, and Great Is Thy Faithfulness) without your being able to read the braille service sheet which was provided to the three blindies in attendance. Incidentally, one of those hymns was chosen by Bingo, the other by Mrs Bingo. Can anyone guess which was Bingo's choice?

I'm going with "Tell Out, My Soul".

Absolutely right, brian! a wonderful, uplifting hymn by Timothy Dudley-Smith. The other one I'd never even heard of before Mrs Bingo said she wanted it - although to be fair to her, I am now a fan of it. The Braille service sheet also contained the lyrics to the work we commissioned specially for the big day - lyrics by bingo, music by someone else (thankfully).

Those were probably more fitting than what was played at mine; "God Gave Me You", by Blake Shelton, & "Honey And The Bee", by Owl City.
Truth be told, 'she' made the selection on both accounts. I was only allowed to choose in what order they were played.
We are no longer together. I'm sure there is a lesson in there, somewhere ... 😅

Wait, wait... I am in Quebec. We have the equivalent of ueb technical here called cbsq which isn't even implemented by screen readers because quebec... is quebec and different from everyone, for the better or the worst. We have 4 grades of braille and 3 level of contractions. My point is, when I switched into the english education system for college I had to learn english braille. My understanding was that ueb was the norm in Canada, US and beyond for english speaking countries? Like in NVDA I have english uk 8 dot computer braille, english uk 6 dot grade 1 and 2, then english us 6 dot and 8 dot computer braille (really? what's that), and then english us 6 dot grade 1 and 2 and finally north american english 8 dot computer braille code... Like, I thought quebec was complicated but as far computers are concern we only have french 8 dot cbc and french unified 6 dot grade 1 and 2. I remember that at some point jaws had the old french 6 dot code but it got rid of it or something? So what's the difference in nvda between the 8 variants of english braille codes including computer braille code? It seems to be a horrible unsorted mess. As far as I understand I started learning ueb grade 1 (very easy) with reading official paper statements from the federal and some rare ocasions where math stuff was written in ueb technical. I understand that the ueb grade 2 I am learning is the same I have in nvda as well as in .brf files from bookshare for example?
Sorry if it's a bit off topic.
Yeah, I also see orbit the only thing I could be willing to buy as I certainly don't see myself using braille enough to ask my vr the focus 5 and get rid of my focus 4 which has some battery problems just after 2 years of the battery being replaced... The only thing stopping me is the apparent lack of routing cursors although I understand they compensate with another navigation system and we have half less braille cells so it's not that bad?
My dream is to have enough money for in the next 2-3 years to get the larger orbit slate which is the entry level price for regular braille display (crazy stuff, I love this company).

UEB is, quite literally, the universal standard for braille these days. Everything else came before. Except when it comes to computer and math braille, then it's Nemeth code. Bingo can do a better job than I on the history of braille, as he is far more knowledgeable on the subject.

Even then we have ueb technical on the desmos calculator for example as well in mathcat and or access8math in nvda.

Good for you. I simply meant that Nemeth was the standard for math and computer braille at one point.

Yeah I learned it just a little bit on my own.

This is my first time posting on AppleVis. I began learning braille two years ago as a middle aged adult and I am pretty good at it. Don't let the naysayers tell you that you will not be proficient and quick unless you learn as a child. The fact is, there aren't many people who first encounter braille as adults and thus we don't really know what is possible.

I would strongly encourage you not to separate reading and writing braille. Those two skills are tightly interconnected neurologically and the more you write, the quicker you will read. The more you read, the better you will write. Do both, as much as possible.

I began learning braille using the Hadley materials and they were excellent of me to learn tactile discrimination. If you contact Hadley directly, they will send you as many books in the series as you want and need so that you don't have to sit around waiting for the next one to be mailed out.

I then hired a blind friend to teach me braille, and I ended up purchasing a VarioUltra 20 that she no longer used from her. I know many people here are not fans of braille notetakers, but I found that using the VarioUltra pushed my braille to the next level. For starters, it is much easier for me to track on a braille device because my hands go back to the same position over and over. With paper, I have to track both horizontally and vertically. My speed decreases dramatically when I use paper because of the need to track vertically.

Secondly, the VarioUltra has a way for me to type and, when I forget grade two, I can type in grade one and it will convert to English Braille American Edition. There might be a way to switch to UEB, but I left it at EBAE because might as well learn both codes. It's like having a built in spell checker in that if I forget the specific grade two code, I flip to grade one, the machine corrects it to grade two, I learn what I should have typed, and then I move on. That was huge in terms of me finally learning the pesky final-letter groupsigns. I am much more fearless when type on the VarioUltra than a Perkins because of the correcting feature.

Also, I like being able to download braille books on the reader. I have lots of opinions on which books are good for beginning braille readers. Ha! You need a topic or type of fiction that you enjoy, and then plenty of repetition.

Please know I am not recommending a VarioUltra per se because it's an older device and not as flashy as the newer ones. But I do think you are on the right track focusing on a braille device.

I have played around with Orbit because that is what my braille teacher received from National Library Services for the Blind. It does have the advantage of having sharp pins which can help with tactile discrimination.

If you are struggling with tactile discrimination, think more broadly than braille. I have enough peripheral vision that I had to blindfold myself and force myself over to tactile. Some activities that helped me: put several kinds of dry beans in a bowel and separate them out. Or different size nails or washers. Sort coins into piles. Tie knots. Anything that forces you to use touch only.

This is just one of many opinions I have about learning braille as an adult, but individuals who are blind from a young age naturally learn tactile skills that people with vision do not. Braille requires a very high level of tactile discrimination and many adults find that frustrating. So back up, and learn more basic tactile skills.

It's kind of like teaching surgery to someone who has never sliced apples. Back up and learn to cut the apples first, then progress to surgery.

I know that's a terrible analogy, but you get the gist.

Best of luck!

What exactly are you disagreeing on?

Learning braille is best at your formative school days. I learned braille as my first form of writing, just like sighted people learning print. Once braille is embedded in your system, even if you use audio for 10 years without braille, that knowledge of braille will always be there with you.
In fact, everytime I hear something read out in audio, mi mind automatically translates it into braille.

So this may sound like a silly question, but when your mind translates into braille, what do you mean by that?

I have talked to people who lost vision later in life and thus did not encounter braille until older, and most of us think of braille in both visual and tactile terms. I have one friend who tells me that the only way she feels the dots correctly is to visualize the dots in her mind. I catch myself visualizing too but I think it slows down my reading speed.

Your comment about translation is fascinating to me because it makes sense, and also makes me think your translation is likely far more thorough and quick than what mine is. It's a great argument for teaching braille young.

For me, even if nowadays I use my focus just in case and 99% of the time in the year I do everything with speech I think the mental representation of text is something very valuable braille gives us. I don't believe in this argument about being better at spelling things although I did learn braille at 6 so can't speek for sb who didn't, but it's like. When we imagine braille sometimes, especially for braille screen put arguably for me, I just have this deeper layer of understanding one who didn't learn braille would not, and that gives me a sort of anchor? Sorry it's very very abstract and almost philosophical but... That's how I feel it.
I know a bunch of people though who just don't care about braille anymore even if they learned it and others who never learned it and don't feel they are missing anything, I guess what I said can easily be translated to tts too.

Braille displays are great to learn with. You'll have a lot more choice in reading materials with those. Paper braille is also great to learn, and if you're constantly using a braille display, then end up switching back to paper braille, you might notice a greater mental load as you read, because the feel is so different. There are a couple places where you can buy books in paper braille, and a lot of them are for children, which I know isn't something most adults want to do, but if you can find something you like, it will be inexpensive to buy, and you can spend a few minutes a day reading, and getting those skills up. Another thing I'd recommend is just to do more stuff with your hands. Do them with intention and try to handle stuff with the intention of observing and categorizing how things feel. You could also try doing things like that without looking. Like, if you don't know how too, you might try learning touch typing, or getting some sensory toys to mess around with and develop skills with. I remember when I was learning, my TVI used to fill a tub with rice, and then hide something in it and have me find it. Doing that might work for you, but I don't know. I was young when I learned. I know again, that's not what adults usually want to do, but that's how most of us learned as a kid, so it definitely works, and works at any age. Another thing you could do if you don't want to spend a lot of money writing braille is to get a slate and stylus and write with that. You can get one for free at the national federation of the blind if you're visually impaired and are in the US, and if you want to buy one, depending on the type you get, they can be less than ten dollars. The most expensive one I saw was 60 dollars, and that one isn't a traditional slate. Slates are low-tech and used with braille paper, or you can use cardstock as well as labels and photo paper. It's not the same as using a perkins brailler or a braille display, but it equivalent to a pen and pencil in function for a braille reader. There are gonna be people who say it's unnecessary, and I would agree to a certain extent, but they are great for writing notes and writing on non-standard pieces of paper like index cards, and playing cards. There are a couple of things you can buy that let you practice braille in a way that you can erase them after you're done. All of them cost less than any braille display. If you want to practice dot configurations, and don't need it to be readable braille, you could try grabbing a magnatab from amazon. The most expensive one I saw was 40 dollars. There's also something called the braille doodle being sold, and that is designed to teach braille. That's about 150 dollars. There's also an erasable slate on the market. So there are lots of options and braille displays are only one of them. I'd recommend at least spending a couple minutes a day practicing reading and writing, as well as taking time to develop other skills that would be useful for you. Reading braille is not just one big skill. There are several things you need to be able to do for it to be successful.

I, too, am trying to learn braille. I suppose “learn” isn’t exactly the right word. I know how to write it, and I have all the theoretical knowledge for reading—it’s not like I don’t know what the letters look like. It’s more about making all of it work seamlessly when I’m actually reading. I know the theory, but I don’t have much practical experience. Most of what I’ve read is paper braille (textbooks and so on).

So I’m wondering how easy or hard it is to transition to a braille display. I’m considering the Orbit Reader 20 or 20+ because, frankly, I can’t justify spending more than a thousand bucks on something that may or may not boost my braille literacy. Would you guys recommend that display? I think all I need is practice, and what better way to practice than by reading on a braille display?

If you are comfortable reading Braille on paper you won't have an issue with a Braille display. The biggest difference is the panning, you have to press a key to refresh to the next line instead of moving your hands down. If you are a fast paper Braille reader you may find it a bit slower. I am used to both. The only time the panning delay is an issue for me is if I try to read out loud like doing a presentation. Then having it on paper so I can pan faster is the best way.
If you learn first on a display then transition to paper, I'd imagine this is a bit harder as you won't be used to multiple lines being close. I learned with paper as a kid and I recall the early material had double spaced lines then gradually moved to single spaced. After some time it becomes automatic. For me trying to read something double spaced now would throw me off. And I suppose worth mentioning paper dots can be a little less consistent especially if the book gts older. Dots get a little more pressed down, etc. I enjoy paper Braille though and if I had an infinite printing budget I'd read a lot more on paper. It is just more comfortable. Perhaps the same phenonomon as sighted people who like paper over screens?

Yes you have to litterally write backwards and from right to the left.

For example, if you wanted to write the word, "Apple". (without quotes, of course), you would write (from right to left):
dot3, dot4 (This is a capital 'A')4, dots1 4 5 & 6 (you would do this twice) (this is the letter 'p', twice), dots 4 5 & 6 (this is letter 'l'), and finally dots 4&2 (finally this is letter 'e').

If you can picture the above example, it is the word, Apple, with a cap "A", in reverse order in Braille.

Really, really HTH. 😅

The traditional Braille slates, yes. The versabraille magnetic one also works that way. There are some slates that allow you to write forwards. They work by having raised dots on the bottom and the stylus is a hollow point that presses down over the top of the dot. Likely easier to learn. I had an old fashioned Braille teacher so I learned to write Braille backwards and read it forwards. I can't say I'd teach a kid this way given the tools we have now haha.

I learned the reverse way of writing with a traditional slate & stylus. I so wish I had the hollow tipped stylus mentioned above ... Grrr 😠

If you think of it as writing backwards you will struggle. Just imagine you are writing naturally, but you're starting from the other side of the page. Imagine if you were writing on a piece of glass and you want another person on the other side to read it. They are gonna be facing the other way, so if you write it the way you read it, it will be upside down for them. I didn't learn it much as a kid either. I did ask about it, but they didn't have the time to teach it to me. I decided to pick slate writing up as an adult as kind of a new hobby. What prompted this was two things. I got a magnatab at some point, and got so adicted to it, and I noticed how relaxed I was after doing some drawings. Then at some point, I decided I'd start journaling, and I kept having ideas I wanted to write down during moments where I wasn't near my computer or phone, so I decided to get a slate, and start writing a little bit each day to center myself. I wanted to write in a space that was too small for a perkins brailler, and also in a way that was a bit lower tech for personal reasons. Plus, I don't want to pay so much for tech these days especially not for a simple brailler. What if it breaks or needs replacing? I don't have a lot of money for luxury spending, and I find a lot of blindness tech to be way too overpriced for what you get most of the time. So I am now learning as an adult. It's surprisingly great for me, but it may not be right for everyone.
I have not tried the braille doodle but would like to get it at some point. Instead of the balls being held up with just friction, there are springs that keep them stable and keep them coming up at a more consistent height than a simple magnatab.

If you think of it as writing backwards you will struggle. Just imagine you are writing naturally, but you're starting from the other side of the page. Imagine if you were writing on a piece of glass and you want another person on the other side to read it. They are gonna be facing the other way, so if you write it the way you read it, it will be upside down for them. I didn't learn it much as a kid either. I did ask about it, but they didn't have the time to teach it to me. I decided to pick slate writing up as an adult as kind of a new hobby. What prompted this was two things. I got a magnatab at some point, and got so adicted to it, and I noticed how relaxed I was after doing some drawings. Then at some point, I decided I'd start journaling, and I kept having ideas I wanted to write down during moments where I wasn't near my computer or phone, so I decided to get a slate, and start writing a little bit each day to center myself. I wanted to write in a space that was too small for a perkins brailler, and also in a way that was a bit lower tech for personal reasons. Plus, I don't want to pay so much for tech these days especially not for a simple brailler. What if it breaks or needs replacing? I don't have a lot of money for luxury spending, and I find a lot of blindness tech to be way too overpriced for what you get most of the time. So I am now learning as an adult. It's surprisingly great for me, but it may not be right for everyone.
I have not tried the braille doodle but would like to get it at some point. Instead of the balls being held up with just friction, there are springs that keep them stable and keep them coming up at a more consistent height than a simple magnatab.

Sorry for double-posting, it was an accident.

I'm not a master or a guru of the slate and stylus... or anything else. I learned braille, the Perkins brailler and the slate all at the same arduous time. I memorized the conversion of reverse symbols, such as wh and s, after I was told to not think that way. In other words, if I want to write s on the slate, I write the wh symbol, or n for ed. Some of them, like l, you just have to remember to put it on the right instead of the left. But remember, you're not supposed to do it that way. Whack!
I haven't looked at refreshable braille for a few decades, but it always seemed less crisp, like thermoform braille copies, and kind of got tiring to read after a while for me.

Hi, everyone:
I learned Braille as a child, first using the slate and stylus, then the Perkins Brailler, then a number of Braille computers, organizers, and of course, typing on a typewriter and/or using the QWERTY keyboards of PCs. The only thing I don't use regularly is typing Braille on the iPhone's screen.
A neighbor stopped by yesterday and mentioned that she might meet a blinded Ukrainian soldier who may need help with acquiring skills for reading/writing Braille, etc. I jotted down your many helpful suggestions and shall keep them handy in case they need my help or contact info to organizations of/for the blind. I also demonstrated ane explained to her the slate and stylus. We shall see what the future may have or hold in store.

Hey OldBear, As I said paper and refreshable braille are certainnly different. Just wanted to add that refreshable braille quality has really came a long ways in the past few decades. I'd say there was a markable improvement around 2004 and then again around 2015 the pins are quite solid now without that wobble, and slide back down so you don't get that kind of half stuck position until you run over it and press it down. I was so used to that, but now if I pick up an older display I notice it immediately. Anyways not here to convince you to try it again if you don't need it you just don't need it.

@Travis Roth, I would still need speech, but if I had a braille display, even the old type, I would use it to look at spellings and various other purposes.
For what ever reason, I never became a fast braille reader, and it can become mentally exhausting for me after a time, like when reading a book. Sometimes my brain just won't process what I'm feeling for a few seconds, like a concentration type of thing, and that gets in the way too. I constantly use braille for labels and lists and short things like that, though. That would probably be useful on a note taker, but speech is the easy/cheaper way out...

Same here for sensory toys, not entirely for braille reasons.