Hi all.
I'm thinking of getting a used mini to have something to see how a Mac would work for me. Late 2018 can supposedly run 15. I see a lot with 8 GB ram. I assume that wouldn't be great for 15. Is it simple enough to get older Mac OS versions?
Also, do they need a monitor to run?
I could wait and get anew mini I guess, but ultimately if I switch, I think I'd want a laptop. But I feel like if I'm spending laptop money, I'd better know the switch is going to work for me, you know? I'm also looking at Intel because even M1s are in the $400 range. At that point I may as well just buy a new one. I might end up doing that.
I see one late 2018 mini with 32 GB and 128 GB SSD on
Amazon, and a *lot*of them with 8GB. Big things I need to check,recording, I assume I can do this with Garage Band and upgrade to anything fancier, Logic, Ableton Live, if I switch for real.
Running Windows in a VM, an M-series would be better for this but I'm told it can be done, and I assume all the Intel
emulation stuff would work in a VM so NVDA and such will run.
The other big thing, and this is why I'm considering used, is just using a Mac. Not just Voiceover, but say I use Apple Mail instead of Thunderbird. How am I getting stuff from my ISP remotely into local copies so I can save backups of it,
e.g. software registrations? How do I back up that mail, and
access it from the backup?
I'm not looking for direct answers to those questions necessarily, I'm just saying, this is the kind of stuff I have to figure out, not just how it works, but is it something I'm going to be able to deal with long term? Things will just work differently from what I'm used to on Windows. I'm only planning to run the Windows VM for some games and a few other things I might not be able to get on Mac.
So this is also why I'm trying to find something cheaper than a new Mini, if I can. If it doesn't work out, it would be less of a loss. Yeah, I could get a new mini when they come out and resell it, but I've usually had pretty bad luck trying to sell things.
Comments
No Intel!
Unless you don't care about running future versions of macOS, do! not! buy! an! Intel! Mac! I can't stress this enough! Sequoia is more than likely the last Intel version, so you'll have to find another OS to replace it if you want to continue using the machine long-term.
I assumed so, yes.
The whole point is that if I care about running future versions of Mac OS, I will buy a new Mac on which to run them. If I can get away with 8 GB and 15 or installing an older version, 13 minimum, it's about a third of the price of a new mini and a sixth the price of a new Air. The one with 32 GB is about half a new Mini and a quarter of an Air, roughly speaking.
200-300 bucks, if it doesn't end up working out, is a lot better to lose than $600-$1300. If you get into even refurbished M1 Minis, you're looking at about $450 minimum. May as well just buy a new Mini at that point. But as I think I mentioned, I don't
necessarily want a mini, I'd probably go for some sort of MacBook.
So the question is, would it work to give me a good idea of what using a Mac and Voiceover is like, or would there be issues?
macOS
If you just want to get a general idea how macOS and VoiceOver work, it should be okay. I'd recommend more than 8 GB if it's not too expensive, though 8 should be okay if you don't want to spend extra. Sorry, my gut reaction when hearing Intel-based Mac is no way! You'll be left behind! If you don't care, or you find you don't like the experience, you can always turn it into a nice Windows 11 machine. I wonder if those machines would run Linux or ChromeOS Flex? I've heard the T2 chip messes with things, but has anyone tried it?
As for getting older macOS versions, this is possible, though you'll have to erase the drive and clean install. You can't downgrade an existing installation. I believe the 2018 minis came with Mojave, so you can only go as far back as that. As you said, Ventura and newer would be ideal, since Ventura is the oldest version still receiving security updates. This website is an excellent resource for doing things like that.
https://mrmacintosh.com/
Thanks!
Yeah, I'm absolutely checking. My thought is that if it works, I save up and get a MacBook Air or something, I'd buy new, whatever I'd end up getting.
Do I need to worry about drive space?
I see two possible options:
"Apple Mac Mini (Late 2018) Core i7 3.2GHz 6-core 8th Gen, 32GB RAM, 128GB PCIe SSD, Wi-Fi + Bluetooth, MacOS Mojave 10.14.1 - Space Gray"
or:
"Late 2018 Apple Mac Mini with 3.0GHz Intel Core i5 (8GB RAM, 256GB SSD) Space Gray (Renewed)"
Obviously the first one has more processor and memory, but a drive that's half the size. How much will that matter? Obviously if I decide to throw all the Native Instruments stuff on or whatever, I'd get an external drive.
Right now I'm thinking Garage Band and whatever content that comes with it, Pages, maybe the whole suite, Firefox, possibly Thunderbird but I'll be trying Apple's Mail first, a couple of games. Not sure what else, but I assume some stuff will come up along the way.
I'll be keeping stuff minimal anyway, e.g. I'm not planning on
giant GB projects, since this is all for testing purposes. 128 GB does seem like a pretty small boot drive size though.
128 GB Should be Fine, But...
Hi Khomus,
If I had to choose between those two options, I would definitely go with the model with 32 GB of ram and 128 GB storage. 128 GB of storage should be plenty for what you need. I have reservations about the quality of the user experience you will have when compared to an M-series model, in terms of system speed and overall VoiceOver performance. The VoiceOver strengths and weaknesses should be the same no matter what model you choose, but I question how good of an experience you will have on that old of a model. I understand what you're trying to do, but I cannot fully recommend either of those models for anyone in 2024--especially someone trying to evaluate if macOS would be a good fit. Regardless of what you decide to do, keep asking questions here and we will do our best to help.
Why don't you think it would be a good experience?
A friend of mine is running a 2019Intel MacBook Pro, 8 GB RAM, 4.0 GHz processor, not sure how many cores. She says it works just fine. She does recording, in Logic Pro. So I have at least one real world usage report for the kind of stuff I want to try.
The reason I'm considering this is price. Even a used M1 is around $430 or so, from what I'm seeing on Amazon. At that point, I may as well just buy a new mini. I'm not really saving a whole lot there. This one, though it's older, is half the price of a new mini, and that's if I buy the more expensive one with 32 GB. If I'm OK with 8 GB, I can hit around $270.
It's hard to say whether your anti-recommendation makes sense, since you don't really explain it. So I'd love to hear more about why you don't think it's a good idea.
RAM over storage
Personally, I'd prioritize RAM over storage, but that's just me. Unless you plan on installing twenty or more gigabytes worth of data for music or whatever you do, 128 should be fine, particularly if you have external drives lying around. The i7 processor appears to be clocked a little higher, and the 32 GB RAM will help keep the machine responsive while allowing you to do more simultaneous tasks.
What Michael is saying is that an Intel-based Mac probably isn't the best way to evaluate macOS. You'd be better off getting an M1 with at least 16 GB RAM, but since you want to keep the cost low, I understand.
Clarifying My Recommendation
Hi Khomus,
My recommending against one of the 2018 Mac Mini models is based on the age of the hardware, it being Intel rather than Apple Silicon, my experiences with VoiceOver both on iOS and macOS, as well as reading others' experiences. I wish I had one single reason or forum topic/comment to point you towards to definitively say that you will or won't have an satisfactory experience, but I unfortunately do not.
One of the things I have read on this site over the years is how VoiceOver can freeze on the web and in other applications. If you ever see someone refer to "SNR" in a Mac thread, they are talking about the "Safari Not Responding" bug, where VoiceOver gets stuck in Safari and other WebKit applications. While the core VoiceOver functionality will be the same no matter what model you go with, things like latency or device/VoiceOver freezing, are likely to be increasingly common the older the machine is. That is the big downside to older hardware. One way to try and ameliorate this issue is by getting a device with more ram.
Thanks everybody!
I found an M1 Mini, 8 GB, 256 GB drive, for not much more than the more expensive older Mini. So we went with that. I figure since my friend said she's recording on 8 GB on an older Intel system, this should work out too. Thanks everybody for the helpful comments.
I get more memory being a plus, and if I decide to switch
permanently I'll certainly try to get more. But hopefully this makes a good division between testing and cost.
Running without a monitor, keyboard.
Here's a question I just thought of. From searching, it looks like you don't need an adapter to run a Mini without a monitor any`more. Is that true, or should I be picking something up?
Also, I have an iClever ic-bk10 Bluetooth keyboard. Somebody on another forum said that Mini will just detect a BT keyboard, no problem. So can I just hold down a key to put it in pairing mode and boot the Mac, and have it auto-connect? Or do I want a wired keyboard for initial setup?
Wired
I recommend having a wired keyboard and mouse lying around just in case. You'll probably need them to get through the initial portion of setup. However, you should be able to pair your Bluetooth keyboard shortly after that.
You should be able to use the computer without a mouse or monitor, though you may run into a problem where VoiceOver can't be enabled without a mouse connected in the Setup Assistant. Do you know what OS the computer ships with? From what I've heard, macOS 12 Monterey has that nasty bug, but people tell me Ventura and newer fix it. That particular problem made me extremely angry, but I've had time to cool down. It's ridiculous you can't enable the screen reader without connecting a mouse! Hopefully you won't run into that particular issue.
Personally, I'd get the most…
Personally, I'd get the most up to date and, depending on where you are, try it out for a month, or what ever the return window is. The issue with trying out older hardware is you'll not be getting the full experience and there are likely to be conflicts getting apps you want to work on it and so on. You'd be hamstringing your experience which I don't think will give you a fair try at it plus, it might be a false echonomy to purchase and sell and old device only to buy a new one. 8 GB ram isn't enough for intel and it's certainly not enough to run windows well. Get apple silicon, if that is what you are looking at in the long run. Your plan is much like buying a bicycle to see if you like driving a car...
But, I'd also suggest, macs are a bit crap. If you want anything for work, for gaming and with a solid screen reader, stick with windows. If you want to produce music, go mac, for everything else the experience is restrictive and frustrating.
M1 Mac with 8 GB Ram Here
Hi Khomus,
Awesome that you were able to find an M1 Mac in your price range! I have an M1 MacBook Air with 8 GB ram, and VoiceOver is very responsive in my opinion. You may very well find that this Mac suits your needs for the foreseeable future without the need to upgrade should you wish to make the switch to Mac full-time.
M1 Longevity
That computer will be a lot better than an Intel machine, though I question its longevity. If Apple sticks to their predictable schedule, I expect the M1 Macs to get their last major macOS update in 2027, followed by two years of support until about mid 2029. Perhaps we'll get lucky and they'll bump those dates to 2028 and 2030, respectively. It'll be very interesting to find out if OpenCore Legacy Patcher survives the death of Intel support.
In any case, this will give you a few years of major macOS releases, so enjoy! I'm personally interested in an M4 Mini if it starts with 16 GB RAM as the base configuration.
I've only just realised OP…
I've only just realised OP has already pulled the trigger. Good choice.
I have an m2 mini with 8 gb ram as a home server/backup/lab machine. It's great... As far as macs go. It's nice as a server as they are pretty low powered and using apps like jump desktop, you can remote in from a great distance and fix things up as needed.
It's largely about music yeah.
Thanks all!
I have a wired keyboard, Microsoft but it should work and I know about the flipped keys. I probably have a wired mouse somewhere or other, again non-Apple but it should work. I think it ships with 13.
Re: Music.
Yeah, I'll have access to more DAWs, better Komplete keyboard integration, it exists for Reaper on Windows but the driver
periodically breaks. I initially thought about it because what I want to do is record some tracks, loop them, and play over them. You can do it with Ableton Live, but that just became
accessible, but on both Win and Mac. You can do it in Reaper but it involves copying things and chopping off excesses and ...
Even in Garage Band you can just hit 'l' on the tracks you want looped after selecting the time, and they'll loop and you can record over them. And when you're done, it will play the looped stuff for the length of that recording you just did.
I'm getting lazy in my old age, LOL! So I'm trying to minimize the time between, "I just had this potentially neat idea!", and getting that idea down in some form or another. Plus I end up playing a lot of loops when I practice, e.g.guitar.
So while I realize Mac is gonna be pretty different from Windows, my thought is, now I'm not just messing with it to see what it's like, I have a definite goal in mind.
And my thought is that having that goal,which I already know I can do, will help get me past some of the frustration of learning something totally new.
Ollie, if you can expand, or point me to where you've talked about it before, on why you think Macs are crap, I'd love to hear about it. Not because I'd agree, the last time I used a Mac it was running 10.6, but because it will give me things to watch for as I'm learning.
My experience
If you just want a low-cost MacOS system for testing, the 2018 Mac Mini should work fine.
My 2018 Mac Mini has 8GB RAM, 256GB SSD, on MacOS 14.6.1. I’m using about half the SSD and haven’t taken the time to identify what’s hogging it. An external drive has two partitions, one for music and the other for time Machine backups.
My applications (writing, email, web browsing, minimal GarageBand tinkering) don’t require more than 8GB RAM, but modern operating systems are increasingly likely to expect 16GB minimum, so I think my 8GB RAM days are nearing an end. (It just doesn’t seem that long ago that 1GB RAM was an obscenely large amount of memory.)
I expect to buy an M4 Mac Mini when they become available, 256GB SSD and 16GB RAM. That’s when I’ll move to Sequoia.
You thought the 2018 Intel was bad? Have I got a story for you!
The machine arrives. I boot it up. I'm setting stuff up, and things are super draggy. It was like being back in the virtual machine again.
So we hook it up to the TV, on the off chance that it really wants a display of some sort. I turn off Voiceover and have my wife help me set it up. It's still really slow. Like you'd hit continue and it would take it a while to move to the next screen.
It's done now. It's a little snappier, but opening Safari takes a while. I go into system preferences because I need to change the voice and speech rate. I do that, don't find the voice I'm looking for (Eloquence). I want to know what OS it's running, because it was supposed to be running13.
What to our wondering ears and eyes should appear? Did you guess late 2014 Intel Mac Mini with 4 GB of ram and a dual core I5? If so then you know why I had a total bummer of a Mac day. Hang on, it gets better!
Of course my wife, who ordered it, contacted Amazon. The agent in chat was happy to help her return it. She didn't just want to return it, she wanted the actual item she ordered. Agent goes off to look into things. Unfortunately, they can't offer a replacement on this item, so if my wife could please return it so they could give her a refund, that would be awesome.
She points out that it sucks that there's literally nothing they can do to get her what she ordered, because this was a real bait and switch. Trust them, the agent opines, they value their reputation and steps will be taken to make sure this doesn't happen again, they can assure her!
The only thing I'm happy about right now is that the reason it was crazy slow is because it was super old. Otherwise, I was really worried about this supposed amazing performance all y'all were telling me about!
So no idea what we're doing now. I assume my Mac journey is postponed indefinitely, or at least until I get stuff together to possibly order directly from Apple. Because I don't think we're all that keen to try Amazon again. So now I have to decide if I want to spend at least another $200, although all I'm seeing on Apple's site right now is a refurbished Mini for $3479. Umm .. nope!
eBay is your friend
You can find some really amazing deals on eBay. Especially with refurbished items. Best of luck to you. 🙂
Woah!
That's unfortunate, but not at all surprising considering you purchased used from someone selling on Amazon. Be very careful purchasing from eBay. The same thing or even worse could happen to you, so it's absolutely worth doing tons of research and asking the seller questions.
I hope you guys have no issues getting your money back. That would have made me really angry too!
Keep tabs on Apple's refurbished Mac page. They used to have base M2 Minis for $509. If you wait long enough, you may even find an M4 at that price.
You can also look around your local community for used M1 Macs, but be very careful. If you can, go to the place where the Mac is and test it for yourself before purchasing it. Make sure you ask tons of questions. Insist the seller resets it with Reset all Content and Settings so you can make sure it can be configured like a new Mac and isn't disabled by Activation Lock. When we purchased Macs for my mom and sister in 2019, I stopped them from buying a 2011 MacBook Pro! Fortunately, we found 2017 and 2018 Airs for reasonable prices, and I made sure they worked properly before we purchased from a pawn shop.
Disappointing
Hi Khomus,
Ugh, I am really sorry to hear this!
If it's any comfort, I tried buying an Apple Watch Series 8 from Amazon when it first came out in 2022. Everything went great, until I opened the package and found that the seal was broken and the Watch box was empty. Thankfully, Amazon refunded me with no difficulty, but it definitely left me not wanting to purchase another Apple product from them again.
How to have a *much* better Mac day.
We were out yesterday, and on the off chance that they had something, I called a local store, Best Buy of all places, to see if they had any returns. Turns out that they did, so I'm now running a 2023 Mac Mini m2, with 8 GB memory and 256 GB SSD. It sort of breaks the cost a bit, but we got it for $463, so at least we did save a fair bit of money. Plus at least I know I'm getting the best experience of the Mac I can, barring something like more
memory or a faster processor or whatever. Those things can be important for audio work, but at least it's that kind of upgrade and not a. totally different experience, which is what it seems I might have had with Intel.
Thanksagain to everybody for the really helpful feedback.
Awesome!
That's great news! I'm pretty sure the M4 Mini is about to be released, but you aren't missing out on much. How do you like the experience? I bet it's a lot better than that 2014 heap of junk!
Way better, setup actually worked!
Well, more or less. We had to hook it up to the TV so my wife could see it and we had to plug in a mouse. But once I started Voiceover, it all worked. I've been on it all day, like I said I'm trying to transition from Windows unless I need something.
There's stuff to get used to, e.g.I have to remember to interact with web content in Firefox before I hit cmd-l for the address thingy. But I don't find that to be any slower than Windows really. Ditto quick nav, e.g. if I try to go into terminal and forget it's on, or go back into the web from there and forget to turn it back on.
Some editing things, getting to the end of a line instead of the end of something Voiceover sees. Pitch change for capitals doesn't seem to be working with Eloquence, unless I need to adjust something. And just the normal stuff you have to do when getting used to a new OS. But on the whole? Really responsive yep, and like I said, been on it all day, so it's clearly not driving me nuts yet.