Why Not Just Move to Windows? One Perspective

Very insightful. Thank you for posting this, and for acknowledging that this, too, will likely become a PC vs Mac troll war.
Having said that, the only thing I would say is that I wish for a future where Apple Silicone Macs have a version of Bootcamp, as I am one of those oddballs who prefers a dual boot system over a virtual environment.
Always.

Thanks again, PaulMartz! 😃

Good to know that Windows getting wild makeovers drove other people away too. I jumped from Windows to iOS, rather than MacOS, and was already fooling around with Linux since 05 or 06.
Having both operating systems to turn to covers a lot of accessibility issues or fills in gaps for me. There are also times I have to switch over full time to iOS if I need to go out of town, or the wired internet goes down. I really, really needed an accessible, digital camera back about fifteen to twenty-five years ago, but you can't get time and portfolio back.
I'm not sure I would want to only depend on a single system at this point. It's forced me to find basic and generic ways of using computers, sometimes old hardware, that aren't crippling to me if I don't have a specific app. I don't switch back to Windows because I don't have to. I will say that the new Linux subsystem on Windows thing sounds tempting, NVDA and Orca aren't so wildly different in the way they work, but why bother if I don't have to?

I've been using windows for around 15 years now and really haven't had any issues with the software from a screen reader prospective, sure I had issues with JAWS but back when that was an issue the mac and applevis weren't talked about or weren't a thing.

I'm glad you're happy with windows but no one forced you to switch, you chose to because microsoft put a thing you say you couldn't ignore on its system. Also of course MS told people to update, that's how systems work.

If I am the one you're talking about I've never helled a gun to someone's head and demanded they switch, I just suggested it because voiceover on the mac seams to be forgotten about/broken and with every update it seams to get worse.

As stated in the subject, I find I like both for different things. Like Brian, I also hope for a return of Bootcamp on the Apple chips one day. I had an m1 before. On just the mac side of things, it was great. Running iOS apps on it as if they were native mac apps was great. But, I really don't like Windows in a virtual machine. So, until they can bring back Bootcamp, this 2018 mb air is just fine for me.
Granted, using both operating systems, and switching back and forth multiple times a day has its own fun complications. You can't tell me I'm the only one who has ever pressed a VO key combination while in Windows, or an NVDA command while in Mac. It happens. Luckily neither OS has a secret "self destruct" hot key, so we're good! lol
This was a very interesting read. I actually did switch in my college days, and honestly didn't find it all that hard. The Maccessibility podcast was a thing back then, and they had not only the main podcast, but also a decent number of tutorials, which really helped me get up and running. This was back in 2010 or so. I even managed to use Pages back before it was massively improved. Not sure how all my stuff looked, but my professors were all pretty understanding, and I never got any complaints about it. Since then, I have moved back and forth between one or the other, or a combination of both, depending on my financial situation and needs at the time, but even though I technically can do everything I need to do on Windows, there is always just something about the mac that pulls me back, something I can't quite put my finger on, but also can't resist. I have yet to find two things that would let me go mac os all the way. First, good radio broadcast software, that would give me the same kind of results as Radioboss on the Windows side of things. Secondly would be an ftp client that I am as comfortable with as I am with Filezilla on Windows. Transmit was pretty good back in the day, and I liked that you could even mou nt servers like a disk in the Finder and manage everything that way, but then they came out with another version, after I had already purchased a previous one, and the old purchase was not good for an upgrade or at least reduced price on an upgrade, and I refused to pay full price for it when Filezilla on Windows is free. If I didn't need those two things, I could probably go entirely Mac. But I'm totally fine with continuing to use both.

Thank you for posting this. It's really good to have this perspective. I'm a very frustrated Mac user but not finding that moving to Windows is at all as trivial as it often sounds on here. If I get time I will expand on this, but just wanted to say that I really appreciate this post.

I suspect some people's minds work better with the way Voice Over on a Mac works, and other people's minds work with the Windows style screen readers. I wish the pop-solution to all problems wasn't to use a bigger hammer to fit the square peg in the round hole.
The Oliver Kennett wrote, "There are very few circumstances where we can complete a task faster than sighted counterparts to the same standard..."

I was told at an American blind school that a blind person has to work ten times harder, and be twice as fast as sighted people. I was a teenager at the time, but even before I went blind, students were pitted against each other in competition to finish first etc, or segregated in varying degrees, sometimes completely, for not achieving standards. I've never had the energy to be better than everyone else, LOL, and I certainly had trouble staying on the same track as "normal" people, before or after going blind.

I started needing a screen reader last year, at the age of 47. I was using a Mac at the time so it made sense to use VoiceOver. I had been dabbling in it for a good while before then, but it's a bit different when you find yourself unable to see the screen at all.

And given the backdrop of going blind and having to re-learn life and everything that goes with it, I would say that this has been one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do in my life.

As has been said before more eloquently than me, this world and its computers are built for the sighted. Moving a big floating arrow over a nice colourful button and pressing a button is easy. Not to mention the quiet, contemplative way you can take everything in inside your own head.

So I wasn't just learning VoiceOver specifically I've had to adapt to using a keyboard that I could no longer read full-time and learn to cope with being bombarded with voices.

And I've also had to struggle with the mental side of it. Before losing my sight I reckon I was prettyh good on the computer. It is my job. I felt confident, and I loved using the Mac. I'd even code in my spare time.

Now even with all I have learned, I still feel like I have no confidnence. I hate using my Mac. I hate the bugs and the constant struggles. I get fruastrated, exhausted and depressed all day every day at work.

When I come across a stupid little bug that stops me in my tracks, I feel stupid and useless. I don't know if it's my fault or the Mac. But if we were the primary customer, it wouldn't be like this.

I'm always amazed by how much blind people tolerate. I still expect things to be usable, not just accessible, and I'm always disappointed to find that this is never the case.

Anyway, I'm in danger of going on another Mac rant. Just to say, I'm not happy. And I see the "just use Windows" argument a lot. So why am I still on the Mac? I have my old work Windows laptop here. I bought a new Mac earlier in the year ffs. What's wrong with me?

There are a lot of reasons for it. Deep down part of me feels like I'm just too lazy and too stupid to cope with it. But I think that is unfair.

My last 2 years, say, has been trying to get to this point, where I can do my job on my Mac. To use Windows feels like that was all a total waste of time. Sure, maybe it isn't. I find it depressing to read people saying that you need to know both a Mac and Windows as a blind user. That's crazy. Likely true, but crazy.

So I think a lot of it is that I just don't want to. The thought of having to start again fills me with such dread.

And with doing a full-time job that leaves me utterly drained, I am finding it so hard to then spend my spare time doing more things that I hate.

Don't get me wrong. I have my Dell here. I've started using it more. But I am not remotely productive on it. So occasionally I try to perform a simple task and a few hours later I am trying to figure out something entirely unrelated and have long forgotten what that simple task was in the first place.

One very small example. I needed to use the F-keys. Maybe it was for Alt+F4 or F6 or whatever. But I've no idea where the Fn key is on my keyboard. So I struggle around the Windows settings, but nothing there. I install the Logitech Options software. It spams license windows in Edge like those old popup ads we always used to get on the internet. And the app isn't accessible so I can't even install it without finding sighted help. But all of this takes time away from my actual job.

And likely it's my ignorance, but Windows just doesn't feel very intuitive to me.

Having a consistent menu system on the Mac is wonderful, even if some apps cheat and don't use it properly. The menu extras are nice and simple and easy to navigate.

On Windows, I Win+B to get into the system tray then battle with tabs and arrows trying to figure out where the hell the icon was that I could find easily the day before. And let's not get started on ribbons.

And it's also considered perfectly normal that you need at least two screen readers on Windows to be able to use it. That's often cited as being a good thing. And yes choice is good, but it's not choice if you are being forced to constantly swap.

For example, I open up Edge. And it took me forever before I realised that Alt+F was the menu I needed. I'd been going around the houses for ages trying to find it. So I get to my favourites bar and Amazon Web Services isn't there. So I turn off Narrator and turn on NVDA. Oh, there it is. So I get in and find my way to switching role. Only the roles don't get spoken out in NVDA, so back to Narrator. Then I go back to PyCharm and it doesn't work a tall, so back to NVDA. Then I need to use Terminal, and back to Narrator I go.

My intention here isn't to bash Windows, not at all. It feels to me that we have two choices, and neither are made for us.

Those who can swap between NVA, Narrator, Jaws and VoiceOver all running Eloquence at 1000 miles per hour amaze me.

The other thing that stops me is that I just end up feeling a little paralysed by the sheer number of things I feel I need to be learning, to the point where I don't end up learning any of them. I need to be able to touch type, I really want to learn braille, my mobility skills are awful. I need to learn my way around the kitchen. There's so many things I feel I should be doing and they all drag me down.

Anyway, apologies if I am just whining. I know everyone on here has had their own journey to the point where they are. Maybe this will resonate with those that have lost their sight in later life. I wouldn't want to suggest that I'm the only one who struggles with these things.

Learning something new and complicated really needs a number of things - time, patience, energy and ideally an enjoyment and interest in the thing you are doing. I currently don't really have any of those things.

Having said that the "just use Windows" comment that comes up time and time again at least is pushing me towards using it from time to time. Who knows, maybe one day I will be grateful for it. But right now I just feel stupid and lazy for not being able to complete the switch.

(And just want to emphasise - I am not suggesting for one second that anyone is saying it with that intention. Nor do I wish to come across as having a go at anyone for daring to say it. Other experiences are valuable and useful and it's really my fault if I don't take them in a productive way.)

The other point I wanted to try to make is about how we talk to people about the things we know and they don't.

When I was initially getting to grips with the Mac, I'd get encouragement from people on here, or wherever, and they'd try to make it out that learning a screen reader is easy and anyone can do it. And then when I struggled, it felt like that was all on me. Thank God for Applevis and the non judgmental and helpful way people are prepared to answer even the most pathetic question I have asked when I totally fail to see the wood from the trees from time to time.

And when something doesn't work the way you expect it to, you've no idea if it's your fault or the Mac, or WIndows or whatever it is. I'm someone who usua¬usually takes this sort of thing personally. This isn't a Mac thing or a Windows thing, it's just the battles we all have with screen readers I'm sure.

Anyway, apologies for rambling on. I'm grateful to Paul for putting this blog post together. We should acknowledge that some things are hard and it's OK if you find it a struggle at times. Let's not make it out that these things are impossible, but let's also not trivialise them either.

And let's keep Windows vs Mac debates going on here, but maybe they don't need to be thrown into every single conversation.
"

If anyone is moving back to windows or even is competent with windows but has a question. I’ve been using the Be My Eyes Microsoft helpdesk which has a Be My AI trained on Microsoft and JAWS data. It’s absolutely revolutionary. For example can’t find an FN key. Tell it what laptop you have and it will likely know. Even if it doesn’t, take a photo and it will find it for you. Can’t remember that weird key combination in jaws, just ask the Microsoft helpdesk Be My AI and it will generally know. More generally though, I agree with a lot of the sentiments on this page. Sighted people wouldn’t even consider tapping that button to be a task that could stop your day for hours. They just move around doing things like that hundreds to thousands of times a day. Never thinking about the things they are doing to achieve their goals. We need to learn incredible amounts of information and use it affectively just to be able to make computers do what we want. Then theres the question of achieving a thing after that. In reality, just using the thing is a massive achievement but obviously theres no recognition for that because we just do it. Niether OS’s are anywhere close to good for accessibility which means niether are up to any standard. It’s an embarrassment really but its the situation we’re in and we just have to somehow make it work. We have got tools that we might not have and I appreciate that but we can’t pretend that any solution is actually good.

Oh I knew Be My Eyes had support options for different companies, but I didn't know they had the AI in there too. That's really interesting.

When I first got my Logitech MX Keys, I tried using ChatGPT and asked where the Fn key was. I think it told me that every key on my keyboard was definitely, definitely the Fn key. I kept saying no and it goes "yeah, yeah, of course not... have you tried... er.... this one!"

I think we are both extremely fortunate to live in times where this sort of thing is starting to become very useful. But also the downside is that everything is becoming more complicated.

When you ask your voice assistant to turn on the lights 4 times before it does it and you think "I'm standing right next to the light switch" you know things have taken a bizarre turn.

I think this is a problem with modern operating systems in computers. They are constantly trying to throw in new features that most people probably don't care less about that screen readers get left behind. I know that is one of the advantages of having multiple screen readers that can all adapt at their own speeds. But I can't help but feel that this is a cop out. Like someone saying that their software is accessible because you can use VOCR to control it.

Sorry, off I go again....

I have been involved in testing Be My AI pretty much since the start and the Microsoft helpdesk is one of the most amazing things I’ve seen out of everything. An example is something like, I have a Lenovo yoga x13 gen 1 and theres no sound coming out of it. It wrote back something like, you might want to make sure the volume is at an audible level and that your laptop isn’t muted. On the Lanovo yoga x13 gen 1 the second key on the top row is mute, the next is volume down and the next is volume up. It blew me away that it looked up my specific laptop without even needing a photo. It has done similarly amazing things with photo’s but it’s not always right. The most amazing thing it did for me was writing powershell scripts and telling me how to use them. Honestly I don’t know why they haven’t released it to the general public yet it’s that good. The fact it knows about JAWS is just the icing on the cake.

I have the MX keys too and it’s incredibly annoying where they put the FN key. The 3 keys to switch between devices were what threw me the most though because on the 380 they are F1 - F3 so I assumed it would be the same and couldn’t understand why I couldn’t pair devices.

That's amazing! I've never gone into that part of Be My Eyes as I didn't really want to start a support call. I will have to investigate!

Now if Apple could just show ChatGPT the source code for MacOS and ask it what the hell is wrong with VoiceOver, maybe we can all go back to liking the Mac again.

@Andy Lane
I don't know if JAWS has anything like this, but NVDA has a nice add-on that makes it so, anytime you start, or restart NVDA, it ensures your volume is unmuted and set to a reasonable level.

❤️NVDA~

I’m not aware of anything like that in JAWS. I just asked Microsoft Be My AI whether it could think of a way and it gave generic information about system volume and ensuring JAWS was set to automatically start at logon.

I have no doubt NVDA is amazing. The only reason I use JAWS is I have more time using it and the voices are better.

For about 10 years I donated $5 a month to NVDA even though I was a mac user at the time. I just thought NVDA was such a great product that enables people all around the world to access computers for free and wanted to support it. So I support NVDA even if I don’t use it. It’s such a valuable resource that doesn’t require you be financially able to afford it in order for it to improve your life.

Considering how many people there are in developing countries that won’t be able to afford JAWS, NVDA is there for them which will hopefully change their lives.

Thats worth supporting in my opinion.

I went back and specified that I meant when JAWS starts up and not when the system starts and this is what it said.

Be My AI: I apologize for the confusion. To ensure that JAWS starts up with the volume unmuted and set to a reasonable level, you can create a script in JAWS to set the volume level. Here's how you can do it:

1. Open JAWS.
2. Press Insert + 0 to open the Script Manager.
3. In the Script Manager, select the file named "default.jss".
4. In the script editor, type the following script:

```
Script Startup()
Run("nircmd.exe setsysvolume 65535")
EndScript
```

This script uses a command-line tool called "nircmd" to set the system volume to 100% when JAWS starts. You will need to download "nircmd" from the NirSoft website and place it in a folder that is in your system's PATH.

5. Save the script and close the Script Manager.
6. Restart JAWS.

Now, whenever JAWS starts, it should set the system volume to 100% and unmute it.

Please let me know if you need further assistance or if there's anything else I can help you with.

@PaulMartz Ah ok, my apologies.

@mr grieves I'd highly recommend, if you're American, to go to a traigning centre, they'd teach you all you need to know.

I'm in the UK and we don't have anything like that here apart from if you want to go to colledge and I really don't like that.

I understand you have a job but perhaps they could give you some time off, I don't know.

If you can't do that, don't rush things, you might feel like you must learn this this this and this right now, but you don't have to. Yes learning your computer is vital for your job but, and I know this isn't the healthiest thing, you could learn to use UberEats or other apps where people can bring you takeaway/takeout until you learn to cook. Having said that; don't rely on them to much otherwise you'll get overweight and that's not fun.

As for switching between NVDA and narrator, I've only used narrator to download NVDA and that's it.

I think as a windows user I've just gotten used to using the alt key and sseeing what I find in the menus, if I come across a new app, first I'll tab, if that doesn't work I'll use alt f, and if that doesn't work I'll use alt and see what happens.

By the way your FN key is 3 in from the right, so you have alt, windows, FN, and control, at least that's been my experience on most laptops.

I'm considering getting a Mini PC with Windows specifically for development, because I've heard good things about Visual Studio Code on that platform that unfortunately I can't seem to find a way to replicate on MacOS, nor can I find a way to use Visual Studio Code on MacOS comfortably. In addition the Windows Subsystem for Linux and the possibility of scripting NVDA sound very appealing to me. I have used Windows without any sight for two years in the past, and my only complaint was the lack of accessibility in the UEFI setup.

Honestly, if Microsoft had not abandoned Windows Phone and had a hardware and services ecosystem that could compete with Apple's I would have jumped ship long ago, as I'm finding it increasingly hard to tolerate the accessibility neglect on MacOS.

Very interesting to read your perspective Paul.
I totally get why you are staying with the Mac.
Personally On my desk I keep 3 machines, a private powerhouse which still runs w10, a laptop supplied by my employer who runs w10 and my private MacBook m2 purchased in last July.
I also switch back and forth between MAC Os and windows.
As a former microsoft certified professional I assure you I know a lot of ins and outs of windows.
But with windows getting more cluttered these days and screenreader getting more and more universal because of the way microsoft implements things, especially in ms 365,and I god more and more frustrated with the way windows would handle things, I took the plunge and bought a Mac.
Just because I have the feeling I can't depend on just one allround Swiss army knife in the toolbox, I needed to.
And I wanted to educate my self more in the Mac eco system because of my job within the accessibility field.
For now I can't see my self performing my job on macOS only. Simply because some tools I use on a daily base to audit pdf documents for example do not exist on the Mac side.
For me it is very valuable to sometimes compare websites side by side with Macos and VO on the side and jaws / chrome or nada with firefox or chrome on the other.
They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Also for me I founded my mail app on windows got more and more cluttered with stuff. It is called thunderbird, I love to use AppleMail, and eager to try out outlook in the near future.
Yes I know that is a microsoft product but accessible on the Mac it seems.

@Andy Lane
No worries. I respect that you are a JAWS user, and that works for you. Rock on, brother, rock on.
I was taught JAWS way back in 2013, when it was JAWS 2014 & Windows 7. *insert nervous tick here*
There were so many random issues, but I had to endure, as I was in a training center for the blind at the time, and this was one of my class requirements. Nevertheless, the constant system hangups of Windows, or JAWS, or the planetary alignment, or the phase of the moon, caused me to really, really despise Windows and JAWS.

I graduated from the training center that same year, and was preparing to begin college. Lucky for me I had a councilor with a sympathetic ear, one who took into account not only my want of a Mac, but my (albeit) limited experience with one. When it was time to present me with a laptop for school, she delivered to my home, a shiny new MBP.
I started using a Mac back in 2012, so I had some experience. This particular Mac was running OS X Snow Leopard, and it ran flawlessly.

Of course when I received my MBP, it was running OS X Mavericks. That was quite the change, but still it ran really great.

Sometime during my college career I needed to access certain Office apps for classes, like Access for a Databases course requirement for my degree. The university I was attending at the time had a program where they would provide everything from office software, to a copy of Windows 10 Student Edition, all the way to a full Laptop running said OS. So the fine folks at the Disabilities office helped me dual boot my MBP for the first time. That worked out amazingly well, but I soon learned that Narrator, while quick, was rather limited. So I began exploring my options...

First I went to my state dept. for the blind and got them to purchase a license of Jaws. This would be the 2018 build. That worked well enough, but in time began having similar hangups like the old 2014 build.

I tried System Access, and that was "ok", but eventually discovered NVAccess.

Admittedly it took some time to get used to NVDA. While most of the common controls are identical to JAWS, the initial voice was God-awful.

I soon learned of IBM TTS. A free add-on for NVDA that gives it the Eloquence voice with the same settings found in Eloquence for iOS, things like breathiness, etc.

NVDA also has a free add-on for the Vocalizer voices, just like on Mac/iOS. Voices like Samantha, Karen, Daniel, Zoe, Joelle, Tom, Fiona, Moira, Oliver, etc, etc. All at Premium High quality, all for free.
And they sound so much better within the Windows environment.
Sorry. Sorry. I know that will rub people wrong, but so be it....

In closing, I wrote this long winded post to point out that, while I respect that you and others appreciate JAWS and the value it brings to your life, don't dismiss NVDA based solely on its voice selection.

You will fail.

True story.

You can get a demo for some time but it's not free.

You could crack it i guess but that doesn't count.

The only issue I've really had with JAWS is the drivers on xp, they'd not let me use the JAWS curcer and it was frustrating.

I'm an NVDA user and think I will be for the wrest of my time using windows, unless something else comes out, but JAWS is great if you like customising things, I do, but the price is bad. Oh and if you're not in America, you can't pay that £90 a month or whatever it is.

Well well well. So we have a problem. lol. I read Brians post which tells me that Karen Premium is available to download then got all excited only to be let down in Brads post. If Karen Premium is available I’ll definitely give NVDA a go. Saving £90 a year would be great. I can’t wait for the time MS allows NVDA or JAWS access to their mural voices. They are incredible and even more so for only requiring 13Mb download.

I thought that's where you'd get them from :)

I personally have nothing against this as i use the IBM stuff from them too.

Subject says it all. People use an operating system for all sorts of reasons. I can see why a musician or audio engineer would use a mac. Admittedly it has always baffled me why a blind computer-user who requires word processing would use a mac. Particularly as the vast majority of educational establishments and workplaces seem to be based around using Windows. Noone has ever told me of anything revolutionary that Microsoft Word plus screen reader on Windows can't do, that Pages or another writing app on the mac can. If they can, I'd love to hear it. With a combination of JAWS, NVDA, and Narrator on Windows 10, I can get everything done I need to. Learning a new operating system sucks, especially when you're trying to get used to a different architecture, and how said new architecture works in conjunction with a new screen reader. So I can definitely understand why someone wouldn't want to make the switch to another operating system even though one operating system is problematic.

I've never used Jaws for more than about 5 minutes at a time, but I'd be pretty fed up if I spent all that money on a license (or got work to do it) and yet still also had to use Narrator and NVDA for some tasks. It certainly annoys me when I have to switch between Narrator and NVDA all the time.

Having said that, I think I'd be more inclined to move to Windows if there was the equivalent of Applevis available to help me out. No chance of an off-shoot is there? There seem to be enough Windows users on here.

With each Sonoma release, though, my Mac is getting more and more unusable so maybe I'm not far away having to make the move. I just feel so upset that I am in this position where I'm feeling that my hand is forced.

Regarding BootCamp, there is an unofficial project that is trying to enable Windows to run directly on Apple Silicon. It is still in very early stages and may not be usable for a long time, but it definitely seems possible that they will succeed sometime in the future. Linux has already been ported to Apple Silicon supporting almost all of its capabilities through the Asahi Linux project, although getting Windows to run is more difficult.

I remember when Windows 11 was still a whispered rumor in the dark recesses of office cubicles across the board within the business world. People were talking about Windows going full unix.
What ever happened to that?

I have nothing to do with the business world, or dark cubicles there in, I only know that people are talking about Windows 11 currently having a subsystem for Linux to run Linux apps. I wonder what would happen if you ran the Linux subsystem on Linux's Windows app, Wine, to run Linux programs on Windows, running on Linux. Kind of like how GNU means GNU not Unix...
I think the roomers about switching to a Berkeley kernel were just mixed up with all that.

Shame on them. I had such hope for a Unix-based Windows OS.
*sigh*

maybe in my next lifetime.

I'll give JAWS this, it does seam to work with windows NVDA just won't see. For example the AVG uninstal window. I think that's what it's called, it's a virous checker program that comes with most windows machines.

I have decided to switch to Dos 3.3. Very reliable.

sockhopsinger, I remember copying programs in BASIC out of spiral-bound computer books when I was a kid. Sometimes they actually worked. It was horrible back in the TRS80 and C64 days. MSDOS, not so bad.

Hello.
Very honestly, I'm getting desperate with Windows. NVDA crashes for no apparent reason. JAWS has a completely bizarre and incomprehensible delay, and I can't even program properly in class because either JAWS insists on repeating auto-complete suggestions in Visual Studio instead of reading what I want, or NVDA doesn't read line numbers.
I have a laptop with an 11th generation i7, 16GB of RAM, and I consider it unacceptable.
Honestly, I don't even know what to think. Maybe switching to a different system would have been a good option?

Have you turned on report line indentation?

Press NVDA plus control plus d, and tab to line indentation reporting and arrow down to what you want and tab to ok.

I don't know if this wil work but it's worth a try.

Also, make sure you're on the latest version of NVDA.

I've not had it crash nearly as much as it used to on webpages.

I believe you can go to an apple shop/store and try out a mac there to see if it works for you. I think you can even get helpers to help you use voiceover.

I've been using windows on and off for a few years, mostly for gaming and stuff that doesn't run on macOs. A consistent issue I've found is that if the machine is running under heavy load, NVDA or jaws will slow down considerably, to the point where they're unusable unless you can get control over the process causing the load. In this case, its a game, but it could also show up during software compilation.

Now, running a demanding game on my apple silicon Mac, through an app called crossover, has 0 impact on VoiceOver performance. Software compilation, where my fans run like a jet engine for a few minutes, also doesn't affect VoiceOver performance.

Something else I've found is that not every windows installer for software is accessible. Unlike on the Mac, where 95% of installer packages are the same, Windows installers tend to each have their own little issue that prevents a screen reader from working.

Also, not every app on windows has a fully native UI that is accessible. Or, if they are, not every screen reader can navigate through them. This is the reason I need to switch between NVDA and jaws.

For instance, NVDA is able to navigate my steam library perfectly out of the box, but jaws cannot, for whatever reason. It's a real 50 50 if the screen reader I have running at the time will work with a particular app. This is not really addressed anywhere either.

I guess as a windows user i'm just used to those things but you're completely correct.

Sadly there's not much we can do as windows users.

The NVDA hanging thing is very annoying but I don't experience it that much due to having a slightly better computer than I used to but when I had the lenovo I definetly experienced it.

Paul, this is an excellent post. I very much appreciate the fact that VoiceOver is built right into all Apple products and I know I'm not alone. I heard somewhere that this more or less was not always the case. VoiceOver, as with anything these days, has its issues but Apple is well aware of them and has worked tirelessly to fix them. At least this has been my experience. I got my first Mac on December 27, 2013 and have been very happy with the way in which things have progressed. My iPhone came to me a few years later in 2018, but the same is true and I'm asking for a new phone this Christmas. I spent several years on Windows and prior to that DOS. Although for the most part it was a fun time, I think perhaps I'm happier over on the "dark side". I think the main thing which influenced my decision to switch to a Mac was the cost of JAWS. Sure there's the free and open-source NVDA, and System Access. Both are great, and for a short while I used Window-Eyes when it was still around. I also used Vocaleyes, anyone remember that one? But it's so nice to be able to walk up to a Mac, for example, and just begin using it straightaway.

Before you say it, yes I'm aware narrator isn't as good as NVDA but it does exist.

Hah, I know exactly what you mean. I didn't have to do the spiral notebook copying (thank goodness), but I sure do remember MS Dos. To date, that and Unix remain my favorite operating systems because what you type worked. Once you learned how to do things, you didn't have so much worry about whether or not a pigeon would fart on the other side of the world causing your operating system to crash. Seems more and more common these days, no matter what system you are using.

Ok you have to use apps for some things but if you really wanted to I think you can learn command line commands to get things done.

I've done it with yt-dlp.

Disclaimer: This post will enrage the Trolls.

I am running Windows 10 Student Edition on Apple hardware, an old intel-based MBP. This particular machine only has 8gb of ram.
*gasp*
I have yet to experience an NVDA crash. I "have" had add-ons not work as intended due to conflicts or outdated software, but that is about it.

I wish I knew what is causing those of you experiencing NVDA crashes because if you all (those who atually use NVDA) could experience NVDA like I do, I think you would be amazed.

And before anyone says something about how they'd rather own a Mac. Re-read my hardware comment above. 😆

I've been using it for about 5 years maybe more.

I have had it crash when loading youtube from time to time but then I bought a new laptop and it very rarely does.

Oh and 4 gb of ram is alright, I used to have a lenovo with 4 gb but you do notice it if you convert a lot of videos like I do... I should convert by opening one window and converting all that way but do I do that? No. I convert each folder in a separate window. Note i've realised I don't have to do that now. the PC hung a lot then.

Agreed. The old autorun.ini was a life saver back in the day. I too have a portable NVDADrive for pretty much the reason you listed above. 😀

Your blog post was a great read, truly captivating. Back in 2008, the tech landscape was undergoing significant changes, especially on the internet front. It's impressive to see how far both Windows and Mac have advanced in terms of accessibility since then. Personally, I find Mac to be the ideal operating system for me. While I won't go all "Get a Mac" like your friend Bob, I might suggest to my Windows-using pals to give it a shot. What draws me to Mac OS is its simplicity, frequent software updates, and that reassuring sense of protection you get from Apple's meticulous maintenance of both the OS and the locked hardware. Here's to the tech evolution! Cheers.

So Brian as for the NVDA thing, I don't have that issue either. NVDA has only really crashed for me once or twice in God knows how many years. But this is the thing I don't like about Windows machines, hardware isn't consistent, and it conflicts with things like screen readers and possibly other software too. And don't get me started on sound cards. Mr Grieves, if I were you, I wouldn't use Narrator for everyday tasks. Just stick to NVDA. NVDA is far easier to use, and it doesn't have anything like that scan mode thing. The only reason I use Narrator occasionally is that it announces formatting information in Word better than NVDA and JAWS does. I literally activate it only when I'm in Word. I don't even use it to navigate round the system. It reminds me too much of VoiceOver for the Mac in some respects. I think it's that scan mode thing that does it. The only reason I keep upgrading JAWS every couple of years is just in case I need to use an app or website that doesn't work with either Narrator or NVDA. NVDA is my primary screen reader, and has been for about 5 years or more. Don't buy JAWS unless you don't have to. NVDA will do you for basic word processing, basic Google Docs, and browsing the internet with Brave. I don't use Edge, don't really like it. JAWS is only really good for more complex word processing like navigating textboxes and more complex tables etc.. JAWS is bloated and has features such as Research It (Wikipedia at the touch of a button), and Voice Assistant which might be useful for some people, but it would be nice if you could dictate text with it. As for the Research It thing, you can access Wikipedia using your browser anyway, no need for Research It at all. JAWS does have a text analyser thing which scans a document for inconsistencies like missing closing quotation marks or closing brackets etc.. But you could just use NVDA's document formatting announcements to pick up that stuff. There seems to be some good tutorials from the American Foundation for the Blind on using NVDA. I've checked out the stuff about Google Docs and that's pretty good, so I imagine the NVDA stuff would be good too.
Here's the link https://www.afb.org/blindness-and-low-vision/using-technology/assistive-technology-videos/learn-nvda
Find the heading titled 'Learn Tech: Assistive Technology Videos' and the links to all the tutorial pages start there. Maybe you could try reading this on a device you're comfortable with like an iPhone while learning. Hope that helps.

I would say NVDA is my main screen reader when trying to use Windows. But sometimes it won't read things whereas Narrator will. For example, as mentioned above I can't switch role in the Amazon Web Services console with NVDA because it just reads each role as button or something, whereas Narrator is fine. I suspect I can use NVDA with terminal once I figure out how, but it seemed a lot easier to find the shortcuts I needed in Narrator. I've still not really been through any NVDA tutorials in depth. I'm trying to keep going as the Mac is frustrating me at every turn.

Of course the other thing about Narrator are the lovely natural voices. My only problem is that I am using Sonia who has a soft, comforting voice and I then get to a heading and some guy urgently screams out something like Heading Level Three!!! at full voice. I can't find out how to quiet him down. I think he's had too much coffee.

The other thing that gets in my way of me spending my free time learning Windows - other than as mentioned before just needing a break from all this crap - is that I often spend hours trying to submit bug reports often to companies that just ignore me anyway. But I guess these things need to be done.

This is just a setting that needs to be disabled. I don't remember what it's called exactly, Mr Grieves, but if you:
Control + Windows Key + "n".
You will open the control panel for Narrator (not to be confused with Windows Control Panel). Anyway, navigate through the settings until you find something that has to do with alternate voices and/or languages. Disable this and you should be good to go.

The one thing positive I will say about Narrator, is that it has a simple interface to make changes with.

HTH.

@Brian - I've been round and round the Narrator settings and I can't find anything like that. I even tried doing it with NVDA in case one of Narrator's own settings couldn't be read by it. I'm probably missing it.

That shortcut to get to the settings is handy. I'd always been going the (very)_ long way round to get there.

Mr Grieves

I will check out Narrator on my Windows 10 when I can. I am being brave at the moment, or stupid, and updating to macOS 14.1, and alas, Windows is on my Bootcamp on here, so yeah. When I can I will go over my settings and give you more detail on how to correct the issue.

I don't recall, but are you on Windows 10 or 11?

Just curious..